Egalitarianism or feminism - what's the difference? And does it matter?

[Monkeytrousers101]

Many women, especially young women, don't identify as feminists today but as egalitarians. They believe in equality of the sexes and human rights. So does the distinction matter?

[ErrolTheDragon]

I think feminism is necessary in addition to egalitatianism because of the deep-rooted issues arising from the patriarchal history and ongoing gendered socialisation.

My DD is 15 and now identifies as a feminist - I think it's because she sees quite clearly that while her peers ostensibly have equality, in practice many exhibit stereotyped behaviours - the way the 'popular group' seems to need external validation based often on appearance or what boys think, the declaration that 'physics is boooring'. That sort of thing. She also knows that looking ahead she's planning to go into a heavily male dominated industry - while egalitatiansm is legislated for there will be ingrained sexism.

[Monkeytrousers101]

So she is expecting to encounter sexism? What area is this in?

[Monkeytrousers101]

It's interesting what you say about stereotypes. Do you subscribe to the view that there are no aggregate differences between men and women? That all sex (or gender) differences are due to socialisation?

[FloraFox]

Welcome to Mumsnet Monkey. What do you think?

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Or is it 'welcome back'?
There used to be a Monkeytrousers on here who was very keen on the nature-not-nurture argument.

[Monkeytrousers101]

Errol pretty much hit it on the head for me, "I think feminism is necessary in addition to egalitatianism because of the deep-rooted issues arising from the patriarchal history and ongoing gendered socialisation."

I'm an egalitarian because I find all the theory around patriarchy and such too ideological and not evidence based.

[Monkeytrousers101]

It's not nature or nurture or the other way around - it's both!

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

But are you a new Monkeytrousers or the old one returned?!

[FloraFox]

That sounds like not what Errol said though.

What's your problem with the evidence? How is it not evidence based?

[Monkeytrousers101]

yes, I was the other MT! But the "nature not nurture" argument doesn't sound like me. I'm not a determinist either way :)

I was just wondering how far along the feminist debates had come on here. If they were more ideological or less

[Monkeytrousers101]

Evidence for what Flora?

[ErrolTheDragon]

I'm not sure my DD knows much about the theory of patriarchy - but any observant girl can see the effects.

[Monkeytrousers101]

lol

"Had you considered that notions like 'evidence based' when it comes to complex social systems are rooted within those very same complex social systems and therefore perhaps not so neutral as they purport to be?"

Can you parse that for me please?

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Apologies if I'm misremembering your position!
Did you study evolutionary psychology or have I mixed that one up too?

[ChunkyPickle]

What evidence would be acceptable?

What evidence can you give me that thousands of years of evolution have made a woman better at using the modern inventions of dishwashers and microwaves? What stats can you bring to the table to prove that women are better at childcare than men or men are better at being mechanics (as opposed to just being the primary sex that does it for some other reason)

[Monkeytrousers101]

Errol: You're right, it's not a theory in technical terms. Just an idea. It'e never been tested or falsified.

[FloraFox]

The evidence base for patriarchy. I cross-posted with Buffy as I was heading towards the point she made about what is "evidence". I was wondering if you were discounting women's lived experiences.

Since I'm not that interested in updating you on the general state of "the feminist debates" I'll drop out for now.

[Monkeytrousers101]

I'm actually an evolutionary anthropologist! But I have studied social and evolutionary psychology too - as well as ecology, biology.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I didn't say it wasn't a theory.

[Monkeytrousers101]

Yes, I am discounting women's lived experiences as falsifiable evidence. It's evidence but anecdotal.

[ErrolTheDragon]

But in any case, I originally said 'patriarchal history'. There's plenty of evidence for that, as there is for current patriarchal societies and religions.

You're a bit of a word-twister, I'm afraid.

[ChunkyPickle]

Ah, well, there's the rub.

kinda like going to a doctor and telling them you're in terrible pain, but they won't do anything about it because it's just you telling them huh?

When pretty much every woman you talk to will be able to tell you a tale of being groped or worse, that's discountable then? I think that right there is a reason I need feminism rather than egalitarianism - most of the blokes I've been close enough to talk to haven't had that problem.

[Monkeytrousers101]

"What evidence can you give me that thousands of years of evolution have made a woman better at using the modern inventions of dishwashers and microwaves?"

When have I ever claimed such a thing?

"What stats can you bring to the table to prove that women are better at childcare"

Actually, there is a staggering amount of cross cuturtal evidence to this. What we are however - and what Bowlby (great as he was) didn't get at the time, is that humans are cooperative breeders. The western idea of a mother cocooned (imprisoned?) in a house, socially isolated, was totally at odds with our actual nature as mothers and care givers (Hrdy's Mothers and Others)

As for men being mechanics - there were no cars or engines in our evolutionary past.