Moral Maze discussing surrogacy now

[AskBasil]

Tune in to hear the pretence that it's all about women's choicy choices

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Paid surrogacy?

[AskBasil]

Mostly. The catalyst was that awful Thai/ Australian couple case. They touched a little bit on voluntary and agreed that's not a problem.

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Is it clear yet in that case if the couple definitely knew both babies had been carried to term?

[AskBasil]

Not sure, I don't think anythng's clear in that case. Apparently the father has been convicted of child sex offences. But it's all a bit murky at the mo. They didn't really discuss that one that much, they used it as a springboard to discuss the principle and then as is usual in bourgeois debate, mostly ignored the actual context of the event.

[Shallishanti]

is that awful woman on it?

[AskBasil]

Sorry, my interweb's playing up

Mad Mel wasn't on tonight but dreadful Claire Fox was

They discussed women's agency (right to sell use of your womb), whether it's cruel, one bloke seemed to get that if most of the sellers are poor and most of the buyers aren't, that's a problem.

Julie Bindel was on and she was good

[Shallishanti]

If MP not on it I may listen on iplayer

[CKDexterHaven]

How come when someone goes to work in a Barclay's call-centre it's never described as empowering or expressing agency? How come empowerment and agency are only ever used when poor people are reduced to their body-parts?

If surrogacy were really about agency then the main people doing it would be middle-class and wealthy women from developed countries.

'Hey, Tamara, are you going to work for your father's publishing company or your uncle's hedge fund?'

'Oh, that sounded so boring, so I've decided to become a surrogate for the next few years and trash my body by becoming repeatedly pregnant.'

'Oh wow, that's sounds, like, soooo empowering.'

[AskBasil]

But conversely they always say that there's exploitation in other jobs too (like Barclays call centre) so it's OK that surrogacy/ prostitution etc. is exploitative.

Bindel made the connection between surrogacy and prostitution.

[Bue]

In the USA, where paid surrogacy is legal, most agencies will not actually take on surrogates who are not already financially stable. Most of these surrogates tend to do it because they have had easy pregnancies in the past, they enjoy being pregnant, and they are motivated to help someone who can't have a child - there is research on this. I don't think most women end up in prostitution because they love sex and want to help out the menz. I agree, however, that there are huge issues that crop up when there is potential exploitation of poor women involved and am therefore very wary of surrogacy in India/eastern Europe etc.

[AskBasil]

I wonder what the definition of "financially stable" is bue?

I'd really like to get a breakdown of the socio-economic situation of women who sign up to use their bodies as incubators for other people's babies. I'd also like a long term follow up study of the emotional and psychological impact on those women.

[Bue]

Ask yes I think that is a valid point. Invariably intended parents are going to be far, far wealthier than surrogates, aren't they? I'm not convinced there is necessarily going to be any longterm negative impact on most surrogates however, especially if they already have their own family and have no genetic attachment to the child. There have been some studies on this but I assume much more research will be done as surrogacy grows.

[AskBasil]

Yes I can imagine it working in an environment where everyone is financially comfortable.

But the way capitalism works, is that inevitably it will mostly be done by people who aren't and the exploitation and cruelty of it is unspeakable. But the debate is conducted as if the exploitation and cruelty is a side issue rather than the majority experience - just as it is with prostitution.

[TheXxed]

I am so angry with the way this topic is being framed, why does the need of naice wealthy couples in the west supersede the exploitation of women of the developing world.

[TheXxed]

People are not doing with willingly, they are poor which is why they are doing it!

[OddBoots]

I am one such woman AskBasil, I took part in this study, the financial impact of surrogacy on my family was genuinely neutral, it may even have cost us a little but with my surrogate children being 12, 8 and 6 now and them still being very much in our lives I have absolutely no regrets. We are a middle class, home owning family with an income above average (not intended as a boast, simply background) Pregnancy is something I enjoy and it could make a huge difference to couples so it was hugely fulfilling.

[AskBasil]

See I don't have a problem with surrogacy in that situation Oddboots. I think it probably made a huge difference to you that you already had children.

But the reason I think it should be illegal, is that while we still live in a patriarchal and capitalist system, inevitably the good stories like your one will be the minority and the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

Very much how I feel about prostitution: once we have a reasonably equal society where everyone is born with more or less the same opportunities in life, if people want to make a career from selling the use of their bodies, that will be genuinely their business and no-one else's. I would expect men in such a society to be just as likely to sell their bodies as women are and I would expect women to be just as likely to be buyers. And it would be as unremarkable and unstigmatised as selling bread.

But we're not in that society. Roll on the day we are.

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Ask, I think uk surrogacy associations do require (or at the very least encourage) surrogates to have had their own children first.

[CKDexterHaven]

I think a lot of the agencies operating in developing countries like the women to already be mothers but only as proof that they are capable of carrying a healthy baby to full term. Then, once pregnant, the women are often made to live in dormitories away from their own children for months at a time.

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Yes, I think agencies like that are very different.

[noddingoff]

bit late to the thread.
Surely paid vs voluntary surrogacy is pretty much the same argument as whether you should be able to sell a kidney or not? Except the recipient in the latter case is buying something essential to life.