A thread about a thread

(30 Posts)
ReallyFuckingFedUp Thu 12-Jun-14 16:35:50

kind of.

I have recently had my eye opened to the fact that there are still people in this world who think a woman having sex on the first date means she has "low self esteem", which apparently according to the men on the thread also means that's it's OK to have sex with her and not call because there is no "chase" or "hunt" hmm Also they'd be wondering if the woman "did it all the time"

So just curious, how many partners is OK?

And how many dates before you are "allowed" to have sex without looking like a slag a person of low self esteem?

Also if a woman really really enjoys having sex and just doesn't mean Mr Right, is she meant to remain celibate for years?

AskBasil Sun 15-Jun-14 11:22:14

Yes I think it's a very useful filter.

Ask a man what he feels about women sleeping with a man on the first date and there's a huge opportunity there for him to reveal himself as a total irredeemable nobber.

So you know you don't need to bother about him.

I'm Christian.

Sex is nice. My vicar made it quite clear he believes some customs become antiquated - we no longer refuse to eat pork, we no longer sanction polygamy, and we don't have to object to sex before marriage.

I find it really disturbing how women are judged. But I suppose it's a good red flag, isn't it?

ShirakawaKaede Fri 13-Jun-14 19:23:27

I slept with my husband after precisely NO dates. We had the same group of friends, had met a few times and when out for a friend's birthday we gave in to the massive, obvious sexual tension flirted, got drunk and got slightly stoned, went home together. I do not care who knows this, it's testament to the passion we felt.

Reader, I jumped him.

He was worried that I wouldn't call.

We've been together 4 years and married for nearly 1. He never cared (nor asked) how many men there were before him.

Anyone who thinks you're a slag for sleeping with someone on the first date or that you should be at all ashamed about the number of people you've slept with is a dickhead, and probably a sexist one at that, since these people never tut when it's a man doing it.

rinabean for me, your posts are the very embodiment of internalised sexism and patriarchal attitudes: patriarchy wants to control female sexuality all right. It wants to control when, with whom, with how many and under what circumstances women have sex. This includes women who don't want to have sex with men, or at all, as well as those who fancy it a lot with lots of different men.

Your assertion that men who think women who sleep with however damn many people they want are stupid, worthless, dirty, etc are right? This astonishes me.

squizita Fri 13-Jun-14 12:48:40

OH, and for people saying men universally 'despise' women with multiple partners I socialise with numerous "laddish" men for whom the attitude seems to be "lucky girl" ...and who are friends and date women who do this. Such men exist.

Not in my imagination - being the reverse myself I have no vested interest in believing anyone thinks like this (apart from my dislike of double standards).

I also know some who say really bad hypocritical stuff (but choose not to socialise with them because of this).

squizita Fri 13-Jun-14 12:37:34

Also just to clarify I do not and would never think another woman was a slag for having lots of sexual partners I do mean low self esteem.

hmm I have Christian faith and I credit those who have different religious and philosophical beliefs with self-esteem.
I find sometimes judgement is disguised as "oh she has low self esteem".

Those who have no religious/philosophical reason for not having multiple partners wouldn't associate it with a negative, so multiple partners wouldn't mean anything regarding self esteem... could be 1 could be 100 (partners or level of esteem).
Just as having uncovered hair, eating bacon and drinking wine doesn't mean I have low self esteem (but might if I was one of the religions where these things are associated with sin) because there's no 'label' for those things in my culture so I just do them IYSWIM

However anyone who let other people treat them badly and walk over them, or treated others badly and had double standards... that would raise issues with me regarding self esteem. And that could happen in a monogamous marriage or a fling, surely?

The way I see it is:
-Act according to your beliefs (religious or otherwise)
-Be safe
-Be kind
...So I would add the disclaimer that IMO it's wrong to 'use' someone for a fling if they think they'll get something long term. If it were on equal terms although it's not my choice, I would never assume anything about their self esteem.

MooncupGoddess Fri 13-Jun-14 12:26:26

As someone who hasn't had sex/a relationship for years I can certainly confirm rina's point that being sexually inactive and uninterested makes a lot of people feel very uncomfortable.

Having said that, it's perfectly possible to be picky about relationships with men but still enjoy no-strings sex.

rinabean Fri 13-Jun-14 12:21:11

SoonToBeSix so a woman stating what men say all the time, to one another and to women, that's the real sexism? Get a grip. Describing misogyny is not misogyny. And I don't recognise any other type of 'sexism' so if you're one of those don't even bother.

SoonToBeSix Fri 13-Jun-14 12:17:35

Rinabean do you realise how sexist your post was. You cannot generalise like that and say men hate women. And your paragraph that's what men think of sex??

rinabean Fri 13-Jun-14 12:16:46

Buffy, no-one thinks women should be pure and sexless. Major religions in this country command women to marry and have children (ie have sex with men). Doctors in this country treat not having sex with men as an urgent medical issue (did you see that thread about numbing creams for post partum women?) and don't get me started on how 'are you sexually active' means 'with men'. The average woman's parents think she is a failure if she does not have sex with men (even if this has to be through the appropriate channel of marriage, they want her to marry) and may even force her into it.

I really don't know where this comes from, free feminist women fucking men left right and centre as two fingers up to the ones who want us to be pure and sexless - well none of them do?

ReallyFuckingFedUp Fri 13-Jun-14 12:14:42

A mixture of the two soontobesix and also a bit of, 'yes, men are horrible wankers but if you don't want to end up alone you have to play the game' thrown in.

SO that you can end up with a sexist wanker I suppose hmm

rinabean Fri 13-Jun-14 12:12:05

It is a sign of low self esteem though. If you had proper self esteem you would be very, very picky about men or not have anything to do with them at all. Men hate women. I find women chasing men absolutely bizarre unless they're disabled or single mothers and need a male income.

You know that men are right about this? That men aren't confused when they say women who have sex with lots of men or shortly after meeting men are worthless, stupid, low self esteem, dirty, ruined, etc? Men aren't being tricked by religion to feel this way about women. All kinds of different men feel this way. It's because they themselves see fucking a woman as ruining her, as making her dirty, as something only a stupid and worthless woman with low self esteem would allow. That's what men think of sex.

Of course I don't think any woman is dirty or worthless. But you're foolish if you won't accept that men are telling the truth when they talk about what makes a woman a slut and how much they hate sluts.

I think that very few people would consciously think in that way soon. But when you scratch the surface of their instinctive or common sense beliefs about acceptable sexual behaviour for men and for women, then these conditioned attitudes form the crux.

SoonToBeSix Fri 13-Jun-14 11:58:34

Really so the old if you have sex with different partners and have a vagina you are a slag if you have a penis you are a stud. Is that what people on the other thread believe themselves or are they saying that's what men think? Am shocked if mumsneters hold those views.

How evvv ahhhhh.

I do recognise the cultural conditioning that tells us, as women, that sleeping with lots of people is a sign of low self esteem and / or that it will result in low self esteem. And that we should not do it. Which is, of course, a load of codswallop in my humble opinion, deriving from the idea that women should be pure and sexless. Deriving in turn from men's desire to control reproduction and inheritance. Helped by religion.

But just because all this is socially constructed, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt women. Slut shaming being an example of such hurt, to which men aren't subjected to the same extent, if at all.

ReallyFuckingFedUp Fri 13-Jun-14 11:25:45

See that's fair enough if it is applied equally and you only expect it from yourself and your partner. The other thread is basically saying that women who "give it away" deserve to not have men be interested in them. Despite that the men are also "giving it away" confused

Fair enough.

My answers would be:

Q1) as many as she wants
Q2) as few as she wants
Q3) not if she doesn't want to

SoonToBeSix Fri 13-Jun-14 11:18:05

Really , yes the same for men and women.
Buffy , I am a Christian yes and I apply those principles to myself.
Also just to clarify I do not and would never think another woman was a slag for having lots of sexual partners I do mean low self esteem.
And no Buffy I don't expect my non Christian friends to share my values I do think some of them could save themselves a lot of hurt from men if they did though. However I would never judge another women's sex life it's non of my business.

Are you kidding, six? Or basing your answer on religious values?

If the latter, do you apply these standards to yourself or expect us all to conform?

ReallyFuckingFedUp Fri 13-Jun-14 08:15:21

It is Oddfodd. It is.

soontobesix is that the same for men and women?

SoonToBeSix Thu 12-Jun-14 23:53:06

Q1) one
Q2) as many dates as it takes until marriage
Q3) yes she is

OddFodd Thu 12-Jun-14 23:31:21

I keep seeing that thread out the corner of my eye. I suspected it would make me cross/despondent if I read it. Sounds worse than I'd imagined

ReallyFuckingFedUp Thu 12-Jun-14 23:20:09

*they are not their!

ReallyFuckingFedUp Thu 12-Jun-14 23:19:46

Nope. Your body, your rules. The women I know enjoy sex, nay, love it.
And I bet their all the more fun for it! grin

Well you'd think that wouldn't you sameboat....

I'm angry and sad and scared for my daughter in equal measures I think capt.

CaptChaos Thu 12-Jun-14 23:04:01

Apparently only if she doesn't put out on the first date, and thereby 'prove' her lack of worth.

Or whatever it was that the oddballs were saying.

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