More punter-excusing

(68 Posts)
WhosLookingAfterCourtney Tue 18-Mar-14 12:30:32

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/amsterdam-prostitute-diary

This article makes it sound like a glamorous lifestyle choice. Feminist-bashing, consenting adults, etc etc.

I haven't read the blog it's talking about, according to the article it's been compared to American Psycho. Says it all really!

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 19:56:48

Baleno are you or have you ever been a punter?

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 20:05:51

> How can you be a "neutral observer" when you believe that men have the right to buy sex? That's not a neutral opinion.

Being a neutral observer does not mean having neutral opinions. If the reports I read showed a different reality, then I would have different opinions. That means to be neutral: you let your opinion be driven by facts. As neutral as humanly possible, I mean.

I don't believe that men have the right to buy sex. To me, whether men have the right to buy sex or not, is a moot point. What I believe is that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so. Then men should be allowed to buy sex, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you make buying sex a crime then you are effectively denying women a right. You are denying a right indirectly but you are denying it nonetheless. Hence, please answer: do you think that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they so wish?

> Why is your opinion neutral?

You said that my opinion was biased because you assumed it was based on a small sample. And you didn't give me reason to believe otherwise of you. If we have both read reports from reliable sources, and such reports conflicts, then the problem is that we should determine what the reality is before making snap judgements.

> Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, parts of Australia, Thailand. All places where prostitution is practised legally and openly. Are you saying that legalisation does not remove stigma? What stigma do punters face?

I can't think of any client of prostitutes that would like to be outed. The fact that prostitution is legal means that it is tolerated, not that it is socially acceptable to practice it in the open. When we will see politicians running for office while flaunting their engagement in the sex trade, then I will agree that there is no stigma anymore.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 20:42:43

So are you a punter?

CaptChaos Wed 26-Mar-14 20:48:07

Of course he is Florafox, he won't admit it now, and will come across all pearl clutchy about you even thinking such a thing about him. Then about 20 pages in, he'll admit that he IS a punter, but that he's a nice one, who 'knows' via his superpowers that the women he's paid to fuck are all happy to be there and think he's a special 'client'. Then a few pages on, he'll admit that one had cried to him about how awful she feels about it all, so he'll let her pet his dog and when she's calmed down a bit, fucked her anyway.

It's pretty much how it always goes.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 20:49:58

> So are you a punter?

If I answer no, then you guys will attack me for not knowing what I am talking about. If I answer yes, then you will attack me for being a lowlife. Hence my answer is: It doesn't matter and let's not deviate from our discussion. We are discussing women's rights here. If you think you can contribute then please do so. Otherwise, please contribute wherever you think you can.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 20:54:41

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

You brought this into play. If you are a punter it directly affects this statement and your opinions expressed on this thread. Please answer, it won't take long.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:10:31

It's not that hard, I'll even go first.

My opinions and ideologies have been informed by:

- listening to women who have been in prostitution, including women close to me whom I knew before they started (they had a variety of different experiences and some of them favour decriminalisation or legalisation and some of them favour the Nordic model)
- reading various studies and reports both pro-Nordic, pro-decrim/legalisation and neutral (as you can see from reading various other threads where I have discussed them)
- reading mainstream media which is entranced with the happy hooker myth and gives a wide platform to the people you say you are listening to.
- reading legal arguments in leading cases relating to prostitution
- watching the evidence from various sides of the argument at the Northern Ireland committee hearings
- applying feminist thinking on the impact of male dominated society on women individually and women as a class.

I have never bought or sold sex but I have been propositioned by men to sell sex several times.

Now it's your turn.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 21:29:06

Turn for what? I won't sway the discussion.

Nobody has answered to my question, which is related to this discussion. I am repeating it here:

"I don't believe that men have the right to buy sex. To me, whether men have the right to buy sex or not, is a moot point. What I believe is that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so. Then men should be allowed to buy sex, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you make buying sex a crime then you are effectively denying women a right. You are denying a right indirectly but you are denying it nonetheless. Hence, please answer: do you think that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so? "

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:31:22

Nope I asked my question first: are you a punter?

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 21:37:12

> Nope I asked my question first: are you a punter?

Er... I wasn't talking to you actually. Fine, I will wait for someone else's answer. And if no answer comes, then I will know the answer.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:37:42

Look I know you're worried as being exposed as either a low-life or not knowing what you are talking about (although you are doing rather a good job yourself on the other thread). I'll help you out here. If you say you are not a punter, I will ask you how you feel able to make this statement:

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

Who were you listening to and why? What was the context?

You opened this by trying to give added weight to your opinions vis-a-vis the opinions expressed by a number of women on this board. It's fair enough for me to ask you to back this up before carrying on.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:38:03

And if no answer comes, then I will know the answer. - well, quite.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 21:38:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 21:40:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:42:58

Do men have the right to sell women's bodies for sex? Because that is what happens at the moment.

Do you know where that happens less? Sweden. Sweden is not seen as an attractive place for sex traffickers and pimps. Do you know how they know that? Wiretapping information gained by the Swedish police has told them that - from the sex-traffickers themselves - Sweden is not an attractive place for traffickers because of the Nordic law.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:44:48

Er... I wasn't talking to you actually.

Yes you were. You're on a public forum, and flora is part of the discussion.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:48:23

Sabrina I think baleno struggles with facts he can't accept. The post where he asks the question starts with a comment right at me grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:52:38

Oh poor Baleno - he does struggle with things - facts, forums, maths, knowledge - but men's right to buy to buy sex is, of course, paramount. That's what's important. We must keep arguing that.

hmm

wine for the fab feminists.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:59:27

You sometimes they come along with all their facts and figures lined up to show us how knowledgeable they are and immediately out themselves as bizarrely interested in this one aspect of women's rights This one isn't even doing that, he's just got his fingers in his ears and banging on with his important opinion.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 22:16:42

> Who were you listening to and why? What was the context?

First, I went straight to the source: prostitutes' rights activism groups. Then, I widened my research to take into account a wider array of opinions and facts. My understanding so far is that prostitution is overwhelmingly a free choice.

> I do not believe the law should punish women for selling sex.

I didn't ask whether women should be punished for selling sex. That would have been akin to asking whether selling sex by choice is a crime, not a right. I asked whether women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex if they wish so. If they have such right then we shouldn't interfere with it.

> I do not believe there is a right to buy sex.

And I didn't ask this. But if there isn't a right to buy sex, should the law punish people for buying sex from people who choose to sell it? If you answer "yes" then you are effectively punishing people for selling sex, hence reread above.

> Have you ever paid for sex?

What relation has this with this discussion? Should we talk about ourselves or about the subject at hand?

> Do men have the right to sell women's bodies for sex? Because that is what happens at the moment.

If that happens then such men should be prosecuted, without interfering with the choices of women who are doing it themselves.

> Do you know where that happens less? Sweden. Sweden is not seen as an attractive place for sex traffickers and pimps. Do you know how they know that? Wiretapping information gained by the Swedish police has told them that - from the sex-traffickers themselves - Sweden is not an attractive place for traffickers because of the Nordic law.

I come from a country where hiring a street prostitute is illegal. Guess what? There are street prostitutes, many foreigners. And their clients, of course. Lots of them. Why is it so? Because there aren't enough policemen to enforce the law, I would bet. You can't just make a law and think it will restrain people. If Sweden is any different, it is because of more complex reasons.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 22:26:33

Straight to the source what about women in prostitution who do not support your right to buy sex?

Whether you are a punter is very relevant to this discussion. It places you with a direct and vested interest in continuing with this discussion, particularly when you have yourself tried to claim extra weight by describing yourself as neutral.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 22:27:49

If Sweden is any different, it is because of more complex reasons.

No it's not. It's because of the sex laws. Prostitution is very different in a directly comparable country - the Netherlands - where it is legalised. There are many times as many prostitutes working in the Netherlands as in Sweden. It has boomed as an industry since legalisation.

Something being legalised = legitimatised by law = ok for people to do. Legalise prostitution = more punters willing to pay for sex = more demand = more women having to meet the demand = sex trafficking. It is that simple.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 22:39:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Wed 26-Mar-14 22:43:35

at least when some our recently banned friends have come on to tell us why we wimmin are doing the sex industry wrong they have eventually admitted they are punters

this one seems strangely shy

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 22:48:50

and immediately out themselves as bizarrely interested in this one aspect of women's rights

Yes, don't they just.

They don't seem to be so invested in women's rights to bodily autonomy and justice when it comes to sexual violence and rape? There's a thread about rape on FWR running now - I don't see many "first time posters" on there going on and on about women's rights over their own bodies. Strange.

When it comes to talking about women's lack of representation in positions in real power - I don't see them on the wohm threads saying that women have the right to be equally represented in the board room, and in politics, in male dominated STEM jobs, academia and so on - it's always about women's right to sell sex. Odd that.

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