More punter-excusing

[WhosLookingAfterCourtney]

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/amsterdam-prostitute-diary

This article makes it sound like a glamorous lifestyle choice. Feminist-bashing, consenting adults, etc etc.

I haven't read the blog it's talking about, according to the article it's been compared to American Psycho. Says it all really!

[Linguini]

I am so glad he didn't say "But I always really makes sure she enjoys herself as much as I do" (delusional punt) and at least he is honest that it is about his gratification and nothing deeper than that (deranged punt).

Not so psycho as fairly honest actually!

It's the men who believe 'the girlfriend experience' is more than just an act that you need to worry about.

[EEatingSoupForLunch]

Wow that's pretty vile. "The girls have honed man management skills"? So a London Underground official is more likely to be assaulted? How deluded. When is right, women are things for his pleasure to him. Grim.

[Baleno]

Interesting article, thanks.

I have read a couple of articles on that blog... Man, life is hard for punters in Amsterdam.

@Whenthered

Yes, he thinks of himself as a respectful punter:

"The girls I visit regularly are girls who I like. I enjoy their company. I'm interested in them as individuals. [...] To me, they are real people who deserve respect."

He comes across as an articulate and sensitive guy, so I see no reason to doubt him.

[grimbletart]

"respectful punter" ..now there's an oxymoron.

[minnehaha]

None of you know what you're talking about....I repeat - I was involved in the industry for TWENTY years, yet met none who match the picture you seem to have of the typical prostitute. Something amiss there me thinks!

[CaptChaos]

Odd then that we have had a couple of women like the ones described comment on the various threads. Perhaps they should be silenced for your 'happy hooker' trope to work? Maybe something really is amiss, eh?

Plus, of course, what we're more interested in is the punter's choice. I get that you chose to work as a prostitute, that you did it from a place of educational superiority, wealth and a perfect childhood. Others haven't, and the men that use prostituted women know this, and yet they still feel entitled to fuck unwilling women for money.

[minnehaha]

If the vast majority of punters visit women like myself and those I know and have known, then how can they know? It's a pointless argument.

[CaptChaos]

No, it really isn't. Unless you believe that those women's lives and stories don't count.

[FloraFox]

minniehaha if you have never met any women other than those like yourself, I don't put much stock in your claims to speak about the vast majority of punters. Your poss remind me of LauraLee giving evidence at the NI committee. First she claimed to be representing women in prostitutuion but after only a few questions she said she was only speaking for herself. If you are making points supposedly based on your experience and you have never encountered women who are or have been abused, have addiction problems, mental health issues or have been coerced by pimps or boyfriends then you just end up looking like you have a very narrow and not very relevant set of experiences.

[minnehaha]

Re reporting an incident to the police, I shall recount the experience of a friend of mine - she heard on the 'grape vine' of the possible exploitation of an underage girl and rang her local plod.....they brushed off her concerns as that of an older woman jealous of the 'competition'.

[Baleno]

@WhentheRed

Yes, we should demand more awareness campaigns to motivate people who witness exploitation to speak, while protecting their privacy. We should punish exploiters, not sex workers as a group.

How many sex worker's opinion do you need? We have sex worker's rights groups and they say the same things that Minnehaha has said.

[Baleno]

@WhentheRed

Opinions on what? What are "sex workers"? That definition is a very broad one and includes "managers".

I would have rather said "prostitutes", but regrettably this term has a negative connotation. But if I have to use a more precise language...

What about survivor groups, do their opinions count?

Sure. What about voluntary prostitutes? Shouldn't their opinions count as well? Hence, let's listen to BOTH survivor groups and prostitutes' rights groups because BOTH have rights.

My definition of exploiter includes all pimps and punters.

Prostitutes do not think of their clients as exploiters, since clients are the source of their income. Dismissing prostitutes' opinions means dismissing prostitutes as human beings who are capable of thinking for themselves.

[Baleno]

@Whenthered

There are a wide variety of opinions among those in prostitution. Of the women who have been in prostitution that I have met, they are all in the latter group.

Selection bias at work, maybe?

A desire to distance oneself from one's past to elicit sympathy?

Although I have read and heard a number of instances when a punter has suspected the woman he has just hired has been trafficked, coerced or is in some other way vulnerable, I still have yet to hear of a single instance where a punter has reported a concern.

I can believe that. Prostitution and hiring prostitutes carries a social stigma. Hence, clients may egoistically avoid reports to protect their privacy and social status. Prostitutes have complained about the same issue: they are unlikely to report abuse because they don't want to be outed. I think that if reports were anonymous and we had awareness campaigns, the numbers would be different.

[Baleno]

I suppose Baleno that you have only met women in prostitution who entered prostitution as adults, without money concerns, mental health issues, and free from addiction, precarious immigration status or coercion of any form, is that right? And yet that is not selection bias?

Er... no. I have read a few reports from independent agencies.

Almost everybody has money concerns. That is why people look for jobs. Some people are not qualified enough to earn the amount of money they want, or need, without engaging in prostitution.

You are not a neutral observer, so drop the accusations of bias. We each have underlying opinions and ideologies.

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

Here is another issue. Reports can be anonymous. Crimestoppers encourages anonymous reporting.

Then we need more awareness campaigns.

Punters have no difficulty speaking and writing publicly. Punternet is rife with public sharing of information - no comments about reporting to police, yet they don't feel enough stigma not to complain about the service.

Er... Writing on a public forum, behind your computer screen, doesn't mean writing publicly. It doesn't impact your image in real life.

Punters are not stigmatised by society.

What? Were do you live, Whenthered? I know no society where hiring prostitutes is publicly accepted. People with high status may get away with it, but it impacts their image nonetheless.

[Baleno]

I should have written:

"Almost everybody has money concerns (unless they are rich, that is). That is why people look for jobs, and keep jobs they hate."

From what I have read, the majority of people are dissatisfied with their jobs. Should we criminalize employers?

[FloraFox]

Baleno are you or have you ever been a punter?