"Mumsnet hates men"

(154 Posts)

There's a Facebook page created by some school kids called "shut Mumsnet down cos they hate kids" or some such thing, which is harmless enough.

But they've posted this advert from F4J, which is rather more sinister.

I wasn't aware that it was mandatory to hate men to be a Mumsnetter. I shall have to inform DH at once that he is to leave home and never see the DDs again. hmm

They're rather sad and scary aren't they?

Climbingthewalls12 Fri 03-Jan-14 14:23:57

What? confused

duchesse Fri 03-Jan-14 14:27:45

MN is feminist in the sense (with the far and few exceptions of Mnetters who've had really bad experiences imo) that is stands for equality between the sexes. Losing their relative privilege rankles with some F4J men. These are not men most of us would want to have children with- most of us prefer our clever, funny and fair ones. I can see why these particular ones are pissed off- they want the clever, assertive women -because they feel they deserve them- but they won't, on the whole, get them. They're dinosaurs in their opinions and they deserve what they get imo.

LineRunner Fri 03-Jan-14 14:32:35

Never heard of the buggers.

Mignonette Fri 03-Jan-14 15:19:44

Capt I agree. He does really hate women.

nickymanchester Fri 03-Jan-14 15:32:43

As Climbingthewalls12 says above, LTB is the automatic reaction of quite a few posters in the Relationships section.

In fact it gets to the point that I don't need to even read a post, I just need to see the poster's name and I know what their advice will be.

Fortunately, there are often one or two calmer posters who take a more considered position. But, the fact remains that there are many regular posters who jump all over threads on the Relationships section pushing a LTB agenda regardless. So I can sort of understand why MN might be seen like this.

This is also one of the reasons why I don't usually post in the Feminism section as, having read quite a few of the threads, a lot of posters here give the impression that they think that most men can do nothing right.

This deters me from adding my voice and I feel largely silenced and intimidated by the a lot of the posters in this section of MN. I wonder how many others feel the same way - or would even feel able to admit this?


Which posters give the impression they think most men can do nothing right, and how?

I'm always impressed by the way so many posters who claim rarely to post in this section have such a detailed awareness of what goes on, that they seem to see posts I rarely manage to find. Odd, isn't it?


Ooops, sorry for ^^ I leant on the keyboard and mousepad, would you believe?

I think that the reason why some people think that the prevailing opinion on FWR is that men can do nothing right is that the rather subtle distinction between a societal level analysis that looks overall at typical behaviour from each gender and what might be driving it and the assumption that all members of that gender deliberately and consciously have those thought patterns.

If you interpret the analysis of feminists as being the latter, I can see why it looks like man hating. But feminist analysis is the former.

It's not that subtle though, is it? Really?

I think some people read with selective text-blanking software that omits any version of 'patriarchy is bad for men'.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people out there who sincerely believe that feminists all hate men, because feminists believe men don't actually have a biological imperative to rape and use pornography, or because feminists think men probably can see dirt.

nickymanchester Fri 03-Jan-14 15:57:46

OK, perhaps I over stated it by saying ''a lot'' rather than some.

But when threads dissolve into rants about how we are all abused and live in some terrible patriarchy and men don't understand how ''privileged'' they are then I just totally switch off.

I don't see myself as a victim in any way and I don't see my DH as having had an inherently more privileged life than I've had simply because he has a penis.

I'm always impressed by the way so many posters who claim rarely to post in this section have such a detailed awareness of what goes on

It's sort of like looking at the scene of an accident - you know you shouldn't but there is a sort of horrified fascination.

As to my ''claim'', well you can check and see that the above post is the very first time that I've posted in this section of MN. I usually spend my time in Relationships, Exercise and Education

LineRunner Fri 03-Jan-14 15:58:46

Even if the Relationships board were being accurately described, which its critics rarely manage, it's hardly a representative sample of anything other than people with serious problems, mostly women, coming to a board for help.

It is a help board for people needing help because they are unfortunate enough to be teamed up with one of the minority of people who are, frequently, worthy of being left.

I think the test of whether the Relationship board was man-hating would be if someone posted to say something like "My DH is kind, caring, treats me as an equal and never tried to bully me", if they got LTB responses then sure, man-hating probably fits. However if they didn't I think we could probably say that it's more bastard-hating than anything.

I think some men take it personally. They feel attacked, personally, by feminist analysis.

And actually, I do think that to many people the distinction is subtle. The idea that someone can legitimately make a generalisation about a group of people while recognising that it won't be true of all the group's members doesn't compute.

I'm casting around for an example and I'm not sure if this is the best one… But here goes: feminist analysis holds that men benefit from the way that women are socialised to take responsibility for domestic tasks. And from the fact that women therefore are the ones who tend to take time out from work for childcare reasons, etc. Consequently, men tend to be both paid more than women for the same work and can get away with doing much less at home without social penalty.

But as soon as you make that argument, which you believe to be true at a class level and know there are exceptions, someone will pop up and say that they don't think that way or that their home situation is very different. Fine. But if they then conclude that feminist analysis therefore is bollocks and furthermore feminists must hate men because of all those nasty, untrue accusations they make against them, there we have the problem.

Varya Fri 03-Jan-14 16:09:25

I loathe bad behaviour whether its men or women behaving badly.

But when threads dissolve into rants about how we are all abused and live in some terrible patriarchy and men don't understand how ''privileged'' they are then I just totally switch off.

I think we do live in a patriarchy. For example, society likes to know whether a woman is owned married from her title. Most MPs are men. Mens' work is valued more than womens'. In fact, traditionally female labour isn't even graced with the title of 'work'. Language often still has 'man' as the default setting. I also think lots of men don't understand their privilege. Ask one, see what he says!

I don't see myself as a victim in any way and I don't see my DH as having had an inherently more privileged life than I've had simply because he has a penis.

I don't see myself as a victim, personally. I do think however that men as a group do have privilege over women as a group. If someone assaults a man, people probably won't wonder what he was wearing or why he had put himself in the position of being alone with his attacker, for instance. If a man with children is away with work, people probably won't ask him who is looking after them.

I don't need or expect you to agree with me, however. Lots and lots of people don't see the world this way.

Maybe if instead of 'switching off', you bothered to listen, you'd understand, then?

I love the 'I don't see myself as a victim' bit. Yeah, cos it's obviously all about you and not at all about women as a class, including, you know, the ones who may not be as lucky as you.

I'm sure there are loads of women in Saudi Arabia who wander about saying 'well, I just don't see myself as a victim so now it's all fab! smile' too.

Varya feminist analysis isn't about excusing bad behaviour from women and pouncing on the same from men. It's about looking at social structures as a whole and asking questions about why things are the way they are. Sometimes, feminists conclude that society sets different rules and standards for male and female behaviour. For instance, why do men commit more violent crimes than women, proportionally?

I have to apologise if I am not very coherent, there's lots of people here who keep talking to me and breaking my train of thought smile

buffy - I know this isn't a perfect analogy.

But if we were talking about, say, Dr Who, someone who piped up saying 'how dare you pick holes in this TV show, I think you hate it' would get laughed down. Because everyone knows that it's perfectly possible to love something, and also to get very frustrated with aspects of it - the more so, because you so want it to be great all the time.

Most of us on here like men, are married to them or have male children or whatever. I suppose it's possible there is someone (very, very quiet) who is a regular and who actually thinks all men are incorrigible bastards.

But why would it be worth talking about it if there were? If we really believed it was as simple as 'men are all shit', we wouldn't bother discussing any of it. IMHO.

I agree with you. It should be simple to analyse it. The reasons why it isn't simple to analyse it are part of the problem, as you know grin.

But I think that for people who claim feminists are man haters, if we were equating it with Dr Who, they would live their lives as a character from the show, be totally committed to it. So, when we commented on how we didn't like this or that plot device, we'd be criticising the whole foundation of their life shock.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 16:28:16

Meh, silly gasbags with myopic views. Must tell OH I obviously hate him and all other men because I'm an MN member...

Maybe the Matrix is a better analogy. When you are just getting on with your life, it seems mad that there's this whole other interpretation of everyday things that just seem completely normal and natural. Until you take the red or blue pill (I forget which) and see that there are whole other interpretations. But if you don't see it, you don't see it.

I guess for me the easiest way to look at feminist analysis is to also look at racial analysis, in the case of racism I know that as a white woman in this part of the world I am privileged. Acknowledging that doesn't mean I hate all white people, that would be odd. Acknowledging that also doesn't mean I think white people are one big mass of racists, because that is also odd.

Oh, sure ... I get that it's not a perfect analogy. I just reckon that there is more going on that someone genuinely reading a post that says something negative about men and extrapolating from that.

After all, no-one has yet (so far as I've seen) gone onto the chat thread about 'things about your DP than make you say WTF' to tell them they're all man-haters. Because that kind of thing is seen as perfectly acceptable, to whinge about your actual partner. What's not ok is to do it and call yourself a feminist at the same time.

nickymanchester Fri 03-Jan-14 16:39:48

Buffy If a man is assaulted then no he probably wouldn't get asked those questions any more than a woman would - a lot of assaults are down to alcohol. But, I think you're talking more about what women are faced with after a sexual assault.

But, if a man were to be sexually assaulted then he would be subject to all the same sorts of questions and assumptions that a woman would get. It happened to a close friend of mine at university and there is just as much, if not more, stigma attached when a man is sexually assaulted by another man.


I've yet to see the police-sponsored advert aimed at men and guilting them for being drunk targets of rape.

Do direct me to it.

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