is there and 'official' feminist view on prostitution? and what is it?

(184 Posts)
ohnoitshimagain Fri 27-Dec-13 09:48:26

hi, just signed up and want to get to the bottom of this issue

ok, I'm sure there's not an official view as such, but how about a consensus or just your own personal view on this topic

1. Should prostitution be fully legalised including brothels?

I believe it should in the modern day, because of freedom

and I'm talking here about female prostitutes and male clients

hope to hear some responses, thanks, btw I"m a man

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 01:35:55

Fiscal cliff wrote 'What Are your motives OP?
Are you writing a paper?
You sound very young'

yes, I am fairly young (19), and want to get to the bottom of this debate, especially from a woman's point of view -

I"d also like to look at the 'freedom' angle, from male and female perspectives.

Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to sell, or a man be allowed to buy, as I thought that was the foundation stone of liberal democracy (as long as consent is given).

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 01:41:51

when wrote 'Sex within prostitution is sex for the purpose of gratifying men, without regard to the woman. The woman's desires are irrelevant. It is man pleasing sex. That is not a definition of sex I will ever condone.'

ok, that may well be the case but how about the 'freedom of the woman to choose' , IOW - Freedom of Choice?

She need not sell her body if she does not wish to.

At the same time, do you agree or disagree with freedom to choose an abortion or not?

Because that begs the next question - why can a woman not choose to sell sexual favors, but CAN have her fetus terminated?

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 01:45:33

änd how about the female sex workers who are neither poor nor addicts, shouldn't they be allowed to sell sex?

Where is the exploitation in this case?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 02:11:44

If you genuinely are who/what you say you are, you would be well advised to follow folks like
Dr Brooke Magnanti
@bmagnanti
and
Maggie McNeill
@Maggie_McNeill on Twitter, follow their links, "hear" their voices. You won't hear them here.

pokerface1 Sat 28-Dec-13 02:23:23

Also Laura Lee (sex worker for 20+ years and campaigner for the rights of sex workers):
@GlasgaeLauraLee

"whorephobia" a twitter account shared by several sex workers to highlight abuse sex workers face:
@whorephobia

and International Union of Sex Workers:
@IUSW_ORG

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 02:27:37

And, just for fun, @banfreebies also #banfreebies. Very, very witty.

WhentheRed Sat 28-Dec-13 02:56:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 03:08:10

How do you define "feminist"? Let OP (a young man) decide for himself. At what point is "a different pov" dangerous?

pokerface1 Sat 28-Dec-13 03:08:49

"the IUSW is not a feminist organisation and Brooke Magnanti is not a feminist"

maybe not, but they are sex workers.

"I support the decriminalisation of all sellers in prostitution."

Selling of sexual services is already legal in the UK.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 03:14:31

Um, no, OP asked if there was a standard feminist response. Answer, no, there isn't, so why not listen to actual sex workers?

WhentheRed Sat 28-Dec-13 03:27:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 03:35:50

Ok, I am over 50 yo, I have dc and dgc. I have identified as "feminist" since I was about 16. But because you're a bit frealy about sex.... <sighs deeply>

pokerface1 Sat 28-Dec-13 03:42:47

Buying and selling of sex is legal between consenting adults indoors in the UK (as long as indoor establishment is not a brothel).

And why the debate over whether x or y labels themself as a "feminist" or not? It is just a label, and I would have thought one's own experience would count for more.

But for what it's worth Laura Lee has claimed to be a feminist.

WhentheRed Sat 28-Dec-13 03:45:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 28-Dec-13 03:48:10

Yeah, I hate this current "silence sex workers" because it's "all in their own good". Ffs, let adults make their own decisions.

WhentheRed Sat 28-Dec-13 03:55:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptChaosGlitteryBaubles Sat 28-Dec-13 04:54:34

Making all aspects of prostitution legal implies a legal position that men have a right to sex, whenever they want it, as long as they can pay for it. I think this is a dangerous step back in the fight for equality for women. My opinion is based on the ethical argument that consent which is paid for is not true consent, which has lead me to believe that the 'consenting adults' part of the pro-decriminalisation lobby's argument is a bit of a red herring.

Curiously, in countries where prostitution is perfectly free and legal, there are just as many, if not more trafficked women in the trade as in countries where it is illegal. Can these women really be said to be consenting? Can poor or addicted women be?

I am not in any way freaky about sex, and I resent the implication that anyone who has concerns about the safety and well-being of prostituted women must be a frustrated and repressed harridan which gets bandied about a lot on these types of threads. The OP asked his question in the FWR area of MN, presumably because he was being honest in wanting to find out a feminist view of the issues, just because there isn't a single school of thought about the subject within the umbrella of feminism, doesn't mean that feminist viewpoints shouldn't be foremost on this thread. Had he wanted a general view, I'm sure he would have posted elsewhere on the site.

I have no wish to silence anyone's voice, I am not whorephobic, if a woman has freely chosen to prostitute herself and there are no middle men, no pimps, no agencies and she would freely consent to having sex with the men she sells herself to, even without money changing hands, then there is no problem at all. I just believe that the numbers of that type of sex worker are vanishingly small, and that the majority deserve legal protection.

sykadelic15 Sat 28-Dec-13 05:41:27

ok, that may well be the case but how about the 'freedom of the woman to choose' , IOW - Freedom of Choice?

She need not sell her body if she does not wish to.

There already IS a choice, and to choose it would be illegal. If you make it legal, more woman who aren't financially sound will inevitably be faced with the decision of doing "honest work" on their back, feeling they have no other choice. Soul-sucking stuff that they do to support their family.

At the same time, do you agree or disagree with freedom to choose an abortion or not?

Because that begs the next question - why can a woman not choose to sell sexual favors, but CAN have her fetus terminated?

Different matter altogether. If a woman profited from an abortion then that too would be wrong.

Here's the deal (as I see it). You are saying that it should be made legal for a woman to sell herself for a mans pleasure (or vice-versa). I assume you're thinking about woman who enjoy it and feel it's empowering and all that. You're ignoring the women who will feel forced to do it because they see no other way (selling their body but poisoning their mind because it's not really what they want to do. Going home hating themselves and feeling dirty). The young women who reach adulthood (or lie about their age) because it's "easy money".

You're forgetting that often there IS no choice, not completely. Not about what they're asked to do (there may be limits of course). Not about what type of person they're sleeping with (old, young, fat, skinny). Come the end of the night and they haven't made "enough" money for their their boss (or their own limit, or their partner who expects them to earn X amount per night) they will sleep with whoever or do whatever, all in the name of money.

You're imagining the good (two people who are attracted to each other having sex) and forgetting about the bad.

TheDoctrineOfSanta Sat 28-Dec-13 07:44:47

I see the OP has bumped a page 3 thread as well.

Ok OP, you believe it's the feminist thing to do to have the freedom in place for men to buy access to women's orifices and to see their bare breasts in a newspaper, even though "woman has breasts" is hardly news.

What other freedoms for men women and girls do you care about and advocate, as a young man interested in feminism?

DadWasHere Sat 28-Dec-13 08:00:48

ok, that may well be the case but how about the 'freedom of the woman to choose' , IOW - Freedom of Choice?

Being 'free to choose' to either eat shit or die is not freedom, its a false choice. Meaningful 'freedom of choice' is dependant on the level of empowerment an individual possesses and can exercise in their choice. For example the reason why many countries mandate a liveable minimum wage is to prevent employers exploiting workers. Otherwise employers could happily espouse the 'freedom of choice' for their workers to choose to work while they paid them slave wages.

In terms of prostitution a small minority of women in it would probably be 'free', that is to say possessing a reasonable level of empowerment in their personal choice- but I would think most would not. I suspect that many would be driven to cling to/believe in the notion of their 'personal freedom of choice and empowerment' as a means to survive the psychological trauma of the job- even as it ate away at them.

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 10:00:20

when the red, says 'I define a feminist as being a woman who advocates for the liberation of women as a class'.

liberation of women as a class? come on , that is absurd!

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the rich upper class woman is in the same class as her min wage servant?

EarthMither Sat 28-Dec-13 10:04:09

OP, as you're only 19 you can be forgiven for a certain degree of ignorance, but you clearly need to do a lot more reading and learning. "Class" in this context refers to the classification of "female", not social class. HTH.

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 10:07:59

If you make it legal, more woman who aren't financially sound will inevitably be faced with the decision of doing "honest work" on their back, feeling they have no other choice. Soul-sucking stuff that they do to support their family.

As long as they are not literally forced into this, then it is still a CHOICE.

Don't you see that?

One can always go without money to some degree or get welfare, at least in the West.

meditrina Sat 28-Dec-13 10:08:48

I think you are conflating various possible usages of the word "class".

If you genuinely did not know that, I think you will find it challenging to consider this or any other all societal issue adequately.

If you are saying it to provoke, why?

ohnoitshimagain Sat 28-Dec-13 10:10:16

I think this is a dangerous step back in the fight for equality for women. My opinion is based on the ethical argument that consent which is paid for is not true consent, which has lead me to believe that the 'consenting adults' part of the pro-decriminalisation lobby's argument is a bit of a red herring.

IOW - 'true consent' is almost never given for nearly any job, especially those at the lower end of the chain.

why should sex work be considered any different from burger flipping?

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