The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hi buffy. How are you doing?

And here's a coffee. There's just about eight posts left on the other thread, so I'm back over for a mo.

[scallopsrmissingAnyFucker]

Also joining early on this one. It is so difficult to keep up when you don't join at the start. I may also be crap at keeping up with long running threads

Did anyone see the #NNsexism hashtag on twitter last night that Everyday Sexism started up for the fact that Newsnight were doing a segment on sexism? There seemed to be a lot of "what are you complaining about" "that's not sexist" "you lot see sexism everywhere" (Duh!) plus the usual misogynistic remarks etc. A bit dispiriting. Also I went to bed before Newsnight was on so I didn't see if the segment they did was actually any good. Does anyone know?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Don't worry about keeping up too much. I think in a way it's nice to lose the thread occasionally as that way people will feel they can pop in without 'interrupting'. So hopefully it is fairly friendly for newbies or anyone wanting to dip a toe into a debate.

I dind't see the hashtag - does sound depressing. But I guess at least it is being discussed?

[Grennie]

Sounds depressing. The Newsnight discussion was okay, but very basic. They had 3 women, one of whom was arguing that everything is fine for women now.

[scallopsrmissingAnyFucker]

It was a bit depressing. Yes concious raising is good. Everyday Sexism is sooo good at that.

Just been looking back at the other thread and the posts about motherhood. Wasn't parenting a much more communal thing in days of yore (forgive me!)? Nowadays it is very easy for women to be isolated, especially when babies are young. They maybe living away from families, friends scattered all over the place and not necessarily having children at the same time. that isolation makes parenting much harder, especially with more than one youngster. I suppose that is why baby groups are popular.

[scallopsrmissingAnyFucker]

Oh Grennie, really? I kind of thought that might be the case that's why I didn't make a special effort to stay up.

[Grennie]

Some bits of parenthood did used to be harder. So I remember my mum saying how much easier dealing with washable nappies would have been if she had had running hot water and a washing machine.

[scallopsrmissingAnyFucker]

Oh I missed mildred's post at the end of the thread - who basically said what I did. Told you I was no good at keeping up with long threads! Also SinisterSal made a good point right at the end about it was all still women who did any collaborative parenting.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Earl grey tea coming up!

And yes, I agree, sal's point it's still women doing the collaborative parenting is important.

I think further back, men did bits too, though.

[MooncupGoddess]

Cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles, please. And a Hobnob.

The end of the last thread was really interesting. I liked Tunip's point that there is a direct line of ancestry from modern self-recrimination about being an inadequate mother to mediaeval self-recrimination about being an inadequate Christian. Maybe we all have an innate need to beat ourselves up about something? Though I think women are socialised into it too...

[SinisterSal]

And I am grateful. But thinking about all that hardship that so many people suffer sometimes makes me feel too sad/ anxious, rather than happy to appreciate what I have
AmandaClarke wrote that right at the end, I totallyrelate to this. And somehow coming as it does alongside the points about sin and Christianity makes me think something along the lines of Counting One's Blessings. And how useful it is a way to shut people up. Even though there is a lot of truth to it as well

[scallopsrmissingAnyFucker]

YY SinisterSal. We see that type of "Count One's Blessings" remark all the time. Especially when raising women's issues. It is another form of "why are you worrying about that, when you should be worrying about this" type remarks.

I agree with you Mooncup - we are socialised into the self-recrimination.

[grimbletart]

Hi everyone: first visit (though I did order a pint of Caffrey's by mistake on another thread thinking I was in the pub .

I think women need to embrace the concept of good enough mother. Accept that we are never going to be perfect, get it right all the time and there will inevitably be times we beat ourselves up for doing it wrong, down the generations.

Why are we so fucking hard on ourselves? My DCs are middle-aged now and there are still times I think, ooh wish I hadn't done that or wish I had done something differently. Occasionally, if I talk about such things with them I get a puzzled look and they'll say "What? I can't remember or even FFS Mum lighten up".

They seem pretty successful, balanced adults to me and now the tables are turned and they ring me to ask if I'm ok or tell me to text when I've got somewhere safely after a long journey. Not to mention I am always asking their advice.

It's the wheel of life thing isn't it? Guilt and self-recrimination, plus never feeling free from fear again once you become a mother.

So, assuming you are not beating them up, emotionally starving them or being a first-rate prat on a regular basis, you are doing OK. And that's all we can ask of ourselves.

Unfortunately, most of us need time and distance to get a sense of perspective and we can miss out on the joy for concentrating too much on the fear. Just an oldie's take on it.

Bit early for the Caffrey's so I'll settle for a latte for now

[SinisterSal]

You absolutely never hear an accountant, say, when complaining about how hard their job is, being told, Well at least you have that lovely PC and all that fancy software - not like years ago when you had to do pounds-shilling-pence with a quill!

You always hear it it relation to SAHM's. And of course it's true, it's way better now that we have disposable nappies and running water and washing machines etc. It is true. So you can't argue against it, you Count Your Blessings instead and simmer.

(I am in favour of being grateful and appreciating what I have, though it sounds like I'm not)

[grimbletart]

Sorry, the thread moved on while I was ranting....

[TheGhostofAmandaClarke]

Yes. Agree about women and "collaborative parenting"
The same for any caring really. It seems that it's usually women and girls who care for elderly relatives. Especially the intimate care of washing/ dressing/ feeding. The stuff that needs doing over and over and over a dis easily devalued.
I thought about this some years go when personal care for the elderly and disabled was no longer provided by district nursing teams but by cheaper/ less trained local authority staff.the buck is he bottom line. The things that women traditionally do are consistently marked as lacking in value.

[grimbletart]

I'd never say count your blessings. Sure, the physical side was harder but the pressures on mothers today, whether SAHM or working out of the home are way way tougher and the pressures on children are way way tougher too.

[TheGhostofAmandaClarke]

Isn't really too early for a virtual vino?
I would truly love a thoroughly large glass of Chablis.

[TheGhostofAmandaClarke]

True grimble
Whatis interesting is that there's any competitiveness about it at all.
I see/ hear it all the time.
why can't we just listen, hear, and offer ?

[DoctorTwo]

Oh goody, a new pub. I thought I'd share this cartoon just 'cos it made me chuckle.