Can I ask you for some links about porn please?

(480 Posts)

Specifically accounts of ex porn actors talking about abuse/coercion in porn films, and anything academic about the effects of porn on male sexuality and sexual attitudes?

I've read bits, but I'm already convinced. This is for a friend whose new boyfriend doesn't get it and she feels like she doesn't have the evidence to show him.
Thanks

No, I don't think exploitation is an inevitable part of the porn industry, any more than it's an inevitable part of any industry. There's both a place and a demand for ethically-produced adult material, and people are involved in producing it. But the whole 'Wah, ban all porn' mindset is utterly unhelpful. And anti-porn campaigns are nearly always populated by liars, creeps and maniacs. I've met a lot of them over the years and never felt they had women's best interests at heart.

BasilBabyEater Mon 21-Oct-13 17:59:59

What is Gail Dines lying about?

I think if you say she is a liar, then you ought to provide some evidence of that.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:02:59

Perhaps I should email Gail and say she is being slandered publically? That is a crime you know.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 20:23:23

Funnily enough, the men I knew who were really into porn were liars, creeps and maniacs. And narcissists to boot.

ScaryFucker Mon 21-Oct-13 20:56:49

I am not a liar, a creep nor a maniac.

I have met some heavy users of porn that are though.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Mon 21-Oct-13 21:11:15

Channel 4 10pm tonight...'3 British porn obsessives meet their favourite stars and witness the darker side of the industry'.

Might watch if ds stays asleep!

BelaLugosisShed Mon 21-Oct-13 21:23:21

I'll be watching it on catch up tomorrow, looks interesting, there was an interview with one of the porn "obsessives" , he came away horrified by what he'd seen, as would anyone with any human empathy.

Here's a link on Gail Dines.

And another. Shoddy research, unsubstantiated claims, anecdotes presented as data...

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 23:30:47

Totally agree Solid with your previous post and great links there too, Interesting looking at the evidence section on the Leslie Cannold link, It pretty much confirmed what i expected - Gail Dines research is a crock of shit based on very little evidence.

To conclude Gail is nothing more than a modern day Mary Whitehouse, trying to cause a moral panic, by peddling bullshit.

DadWasHere Mon 21-Oct-13 23:46:11

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical' or 'amateur'

Among young men amateur porn is highly sought after (along with other dubious categories) but its not commonly sought after because of ethics, its sought after for realism. I raised amateur porn in connection with ethics only because the original poster framed commercial porn within an ethical framework. Can porn be ethical? Ethics can be a by-product of amateur porn, but a demand for realism is the prime driver for its consumption. You can have ethical amateur porn and unethical amateur porn- person unaware they were being filmed (unethical production and distribution) or aware but believing the porn is private (unethical distribution). Realism that is ethically tainted.

But I don’t think people are ethical consumers in the broader scheme of things, some hesitate to buy caged eggs and buy free range instead for a cheap and quick 'ethics boost' but they don’t want to confront the ethics of what they consume on a day to day basis- that their favourite mobile phone was built by people in abominable conditions who had their hands paralysed by chemicals used to clean the screen because management would not spend an extra cent on gloves for them. Few want to confront that and even then how do I know if the different phone I have was made under better conditions anyway?

It is said there is a strong link between consumption of porn and violence. I don’t doubt that because porn is very broadly consumed by young men so certainly there is a correlation with violence and probably a correlation between violence and men being able to breathe as well. In context with amateur porn I doubt violent men would give a damn it, rather I wonder if they would seek to avoid it because they don’t want reminders of their broken lives.

But perhaps this is far less about just the ethics of porn production, that its just a smoke grenade hiding a broader situation that allows women to be OK with rubbing one off to a fifty shades while simultaneously being down on the consumption of visual pornography by men because women cast it as a betrayal that questions their desirability and what is core to the eroticism of things like fifty shades- the man who ultimately commits to them above any other.

FloraFox Mon 21-Oct-13 23:54:32

Sarah Ditum is hardly in a position to critique Gail Dines' research or claims. She doesn't even bother with anecdotes - she just goes straight to sweeping rejection:

"Dines claims that porn portrays “acts that most girlfriends or wives would absolutely refuse to do” (pg 64), encouraging men to seek what she describes as “porn sex” involving “ejaculating on their partner's face or pounding anal sex” (pg 67). I don’t plan on claiming that these are universal features of women’s fantasy lives, but I am uncomfortable with Dines’ claiming that most women would absolutely refuse to do them. Some women actively seek these experiences, some heterosexual couples may be able to successfully negotiate them as part of their sex life, and in some couples, it might well be the woman ejaculating on the man’s face or performing pounding anal sex on him."

and this wonderfully researched silencing statement:

"Until anti-porn feminists like Dines are able to define porn effectively, acknowledge its benefits as well as its faults, and admit to their own lack of evidence, I struggle to see why their arguments should be given the exposure that a flawed work like Pornland has received."

Typical third wave bullshit.

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 00:00:57

That is an opinion piece, not an analysis. Gail Dines actually did lots of research to write her book. If you are going to say it is invaled, you need evidence, not just opinion.

DadWasHere Tue 22-Oct-13 01:08:01

Typical third wave bullshit.

No second guess needed as to what side of the Porn Wars you were on then? First and second wave BS was so much simpler IMO. Porn in a relationship where both people are Ok with it spices the sexual relationship, a man being comfortable with his ladies dildo/vibrator does the same. If the man hides his porn use and/or the women hides her toys or if one is just plain uncomfortable with their partners sexual choices the sexual relationship is damaged. Nothing to do with porn, nor the dildo/vibrator, nether the man nor the woman- its a compromise at best or a lie/deceit at worst.

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 01:14:05

I don't care about your relationship. I care about the status of women as a class and the liberation of women as a class from oppression. Porn as it currently exists perpetuates the oppression of women.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Tue 22-Oct-13 09:16:17

You could go on with the Wars of the Statistics and Reports all day, from both sides. Why not take a short cut by looking at porn for what it is? Today's most popular porn is that of women being abused. Which is horrible and unpleasant. What sort of person would want to watch such stuff? Not a very nice one.

So there you have it. Ugly films, watched by people who enjoy seeing women hurt, who are therefore unfit to have relationships with women.

Bye bye to those chaps, and a big hello to the nice men who want the women they sleep with to have as good a time as them. They'll get all the women, and the sad porn-watchers will end up paying money - a lot of money if they want what porn shows them - to professional sex workers.

Bad news for the professional sex workers of course, but at least they're being paid to put up with these guys, and they can buy a bag of smack to take their minds off it afterwards.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 12:50:45

That's the same lies that Gail Dines peddles, trying to pass off extreme porn as 'mainstream'
Googling 'most popular porn' interetingly brings up LiveJasmin as number 1 which is a web cam site featuring solo performers mostly chatting, a bit of striptease and pleasuring themselves. Not exactly abusive. Exhibitioinist yes.

Also to say that people who watch porn will end up having to pay for sex because no one will date them is one of the daftest things i've heard in a long time.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 12:53:01

^That is an opinion piece, not an analysis. Gail Dines actually did lots of research to write her book. If you are going to say it is invaled, you need evidence, not just opinion.
^

Please look at Solids 2nd article, the Leslie Cannold link and refer to the 'evidence' section. It's all there

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 12:54:13

Frank, did you watch that programme on channel 4 last night that followed 3 porn addicts ? I think those guys will never get a date again.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 22-Oct-13 13:00:07

What's the saying about trying to mud wrestle with a pig - that you'll end up covered in shit and the pig will enjoy it?
That's what trying to argue with pro-porners is like - utterly futile.
They aren't worth the time and effort of typing a coherent response, quite frankly.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 14:11:41

Frank, did you watch that programme on channel 4 last night that followed 3 porn addicts ? I think those guys will never get a date again.

yeah i did, but weren't they 'born again' by the end of it? I am sure someone will date them. Maybe someone who isn't so judgemental on these issues, or the millions of people who enjoy porn (including women)

also that set they went on was terrible. Not exactly high quality erotica. hmm
But i am sure it will be used by the anti porn lobby as being representative of all porn/ erotica, in a similar way Max hardcore gets wheeled out everytime.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 16:24:32

Have you been on every porn set then, Frank?. Do enlighten us if that is the case.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Tue 22-Oct-13 21:04:04

Well, SadFrank, I won't be shagging anyone I know for certain looks at hardcore porn anytime soon. Not only do I know from experience they will be unbelievably crap shags, but I will also have the inconvenience of having to visit an STI clinic with the unpleasant wait for the results afterwards.

Do you tell potential partners that you use porn/prostitutes, as part of your chat-up routine? Do you think that disclosing this will make the women think "Gosh, he must be really good at it"?

No, I didn't think so.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 21:12:56

Sowhat - you should visit the STI clinic anyway if you are having sex with a new partner. If you are sexually active you should look after your sexual health.
I don't know why you have to stigmatise visiting a sexual health clinic? I thought we had moved past this.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 21:18:08

No, it's porn users that are being stigmatised. With good reason.

"Inconvenience" and "unpleasant wait for results" is the simple truth, not derogatory about people who visit STI clinics.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 21:36:51

Scary - she implied she would only visit a clinic because of sleeping with a porn watcher. That's not sensible.

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