Can I ask you for some links about porn please?

(480 Posts)

Specifically accounts of ex porn actors talking about abuse/coercion in porn films, and anything academic about the effects of porn on male sexuality and sexual attitudes?

I've read bits, but I'm already convinced. This is for a friend whose new boyfriend doesn't get it and she feels like she doesn't have the evidence to show him.
Thanks

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 22:52:34

All porn is exploitative. We are not being disingenous aka lying at all.

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 22:56:59

Actually it's not conflating two issues. The vast vast vast majority of porn is utterly exploitative so to pretend that the two things aren't interlinked, is in fact the disingenuous (or uninformed, take your pick) position.

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 23:02:20

How do you recognise amateur porn and how do you know it's not exploitative?

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 23:14:05

Most amateur porn you get on google is actually made by professionals and made to look amateur. The point of it is to whet your appetite for more stuff that you have to pay for, so it's worth the companies putting out free stuff to a bunch of people who will never go beyond the free stuff, because the profit margin on those who will go further and pay, is enough to make good business sense.

OP, the three most up to date books I can think of are: Gail Dines' Pornland the book she wrote with Robert Jensen Pornography and Julia Long's very recently published book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anti-Porn-Resurgence-Anti-Pornography-Feminism-ebook/dp/B00A76WXDY/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382307114&sr=1-1&keywords=julia+long Anti Porn]]

One of those might be a good recommendation for your friend.

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 23:14:48
YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 20-Oct-13 23:27:04

Exactly curlew.

I'm not against the idea of people watching other people have consensual, enjoyable sex...but how do you know for sure that is what you are seeing? And how can amateur couples keep control of the distribution of their scenes once the vids are on the net?

And, I'm not sure how common this is, but I have spent years 'performing' rather than enjoying sex, down in part to having low self esteem so feeling I had to emulate porn by i.e. fake moaning, doing acts I didn't really fancy or enjoy, and just basically making it all about them.

I am much more self confident and selfish and lazy now so am not like that anymore but my point is that even in watching 'amateur, real, consensual, enjoyable' sex you might just be watching he same old degrading, fake shite.

Bleurgh, hope that makes sense!

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 01:11:05

How do you recognise amateur porn and how do you know it's not exploitative?

With a bit of research and by making an informed decision. Bit like anything else in life.

Here's a couple of interesting porn star interviews to balance all the anti stuff that's been posted on here. It appears the biggest issue is not the making of the porn itself but the discrimination from some narrow minded people after their porn career has finished.

Gauge:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu4CslSVss4

Sasha Grey:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lzZrask5F0

DadWasHere Mon 21-Oct-13 03:41:43

Most amateur porn you get on google is actually made by professionals and made to look amateur.

Sigh. Google tells me that I can greatly enlarge my penis with pills. Hopefully people use google to do deeper research than simply deciding what companies want to sell them is all fake crap- because those situations are legion on the net.

The reality is amateur porn is not compromised by what you talk about, although it is polluted by other issues. Ultimately exhibitionism as a form of eroticism pre-dates the internet by hundreds if not thousands of years. What was the real appeal of the Polaroid camera back in the day, the fact you could get a super expensive photo instantly or the fact the photo lab would never see the pictures?

But, you said 'most'- ratios aside what of the rest? Is it the idea of porn that offends Prima-Facie because all porn is inherently degrading to make or watch?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 21-Oct-13 07:54:22

I think it's the porn industry that is exploitative. The industry is about money not sex - but where there's money to be made, there will be exploitation. Unfortunately, the exploitation in the porn industry involves, largely, the sexual exploitation and degradation of women. With ever more ingenious ways of her being penetrated...

Shelley Lubben (ex-porn star) and Germaine Greer are 2 people which spring to mind who speak out eloquently on this, OP.

This discussion will probably degenerate into an argument about exploitation, objectification and censorship now- discussions on porn always do. But I always think of what hully said -The argument goes:

"I like to watch women having things done to them.
I need to like myself.
Therefore, porn is harmless."

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:11:19

I will give the link to Hardcore, the documentary about the making of hardcore pornography, because Youtube only shows clips of it, and you need to see the whole story and get to know Felicity to really understand it. Felicity's a great girl, and it's useful to see how someone like her, who has a brain and some guts, could get dragged into doing things she never set out to do.

Obviously it's not pleasant, but I found it just about watchable (usually I switch off the tv the moment rape etc is mentioned) as the director and is crew make a good enough job to make it clear unpleasant things are going on without actually showing them. Felicity says several times how much safer she feels that the camera crew are there, and in the end they actually step in to remove her from danger.

hcdocu.blogspot.co.uk/

And watching it really did help me make my mind up about pornography. Because I don't go looking for it on today's internet, I did have rather an old fashioned view of it and hadn't realised how much things have moved on/how much worse it's got. Show this to your mate's boyfriend, and then ask him what he thinks of Max Hardcore and his mates.

If he's still not convinced, tell him to go off and google some more information about Max Hardcore's activities, which really will sicken him (if he's any kind of decent human being). Max has just been in prison (the LA authorities managed to nail him for portraying women as underage girls in his films - shame they couldn't just do him for abusing women, but they must have some funny laws over there) but unfortunately he must be out by now.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:17:32

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical'
or 'amateur' (or whatever other bullshit name you want to give it) and a further 0.8% might give it a glancing nod but ultimately their boner desire to orgasm gets in the way.*

Porn is always exploitative to women in a patriarchal environment.

The fact that the men have turned up here to defend their boners express their desires to wank over watch men having sex with women, is kind of proving the point.

*figures may not be totally accurate but have 100% more basis in reality than the 'amateur' porn argument.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:19:28

That was to Dadwashere, AngryFrank and DavesDad, in case it wasn't obvious!

curlew Mon 21-Oct-13 08:53:08

Really scallops? Doesn't everyone get a signed consent form from all participants before they settle down for an evening of wanking tasteful erotica?

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:56:57

I really would like to say yes curlew. But my spidey-senses say no.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Mon 21-Oct-13 09:16:27

I have no doubts that porn is unethical.

I was saying that it seemed "wasteful" to write off the <^insert number here^> percent of people that watch it rather than educating them.

Criminals can be rehabilitated (apparently) but porn viewers can't.

Just seems a bit strange.

Gail Dines is a liar - anecdote is not data and making up numbers and statistics at random is not ethical - and Shelly Lubben is nuts. (And racist, anti-choice and homophobic with it).

There is nothing inherently wrong with watching - or producing - sexually explicit entertainment media. Exploitation is a problem within every aspect of commerical entertainment, but the way to deal with it is to seek out ethically-produced material.

Shelley lubben may be anti choice and excessively religious (I'll take your word on the rest) but she's lived it and I believe she's telling her truth.
I agree with your assertion that every aspect of the entertainment industry is exploitative but also with the poster above who stated that the exploitation in porn is more damaging because of the physical and emotional harm that comes of sexual exploitation. It's not the same as any other industry because the stakes are much higher.
Sgb, do you think that exploitative porn and filmed abuse is an unavoidable byproduct of the adult industry? Because I'm not sure it's something that we should accept so lightly. And while there is a market for gonzo misogynistic porn, there will be women being coerced and abused for entertainment. Lots of people don't want to watch ethical porn, they want to watch 'horny teen virgins being abused by giant cocks' and that's the problem, and the question.

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 11:13:00

Agreed Solid.

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical'
or 'amateur' (or whatever other bullshit name you want to give it) and a further 0.8% might give it a glancing nod but ultimately their boner desire to orgasm gets in the way.

Care to actually quantify those outrageous assumptions Scallops?

The fact that the men have turned up here to defend their boners express their desires to wank over watch men having sex with women, is kind of proving the point.

oh sorry are men not allowed on these forums?, must have not read the terms and conditions properly when i signed up. So you want to criticize men who watch porn but not involve them in the debate? i get ya! confused Also what's your obsession with men's boners or is that what you like to reduce us to? It's sounding very condescending to me.

oh and why keep dragging out that Max hardcore video? He is not a nice bloke and he is despised by the porn industry. You will not find much of his works on the net. Most porn forums /streaming sites have banned him too. All it proves is that Max Hardcore is a bastard. The guy even went to jail. A classic case of cherry picking the worst example and passing it off as the norm. sad

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 11:18:58

Gail Dines is not a liar. What an outrageous accusation to make without any evidence at all.

Shelley Luben is excessively religious and she is talking about her own personal experience of being in porn. I believe what she says about her experiences.

But I find this with any woman who has been in prostitution or porn and says it is harmful or who has researched it. They always get called liars.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 21-Oct-13 11:22:11

Sowhat thank you, I have only seen the youtube clips. I agree with you, Felicity comes across as an incredibly savvy, 'knows what she's doing' type girl, she's funny and very likeable. Yet she ends up being little more than a piece of meat to the film-makers - bullied into going back onto the set even though she was crying and choking (the point at which the makers intervened).

Ehric - agree about Shelley Lubbin. You can listen to a person's experience of an industry they worked in, without agreeing with their every viewpoint.

CuttedUpPear Mon 21-Oct-13 11:23:59
SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 11:44:30

The Hardcore programme covers a good deal more than just MH. I thought it was a well made documentary, and if you have to watch one programme to find out about how porn films are made, it's not a bad example. The film crew seemed to care about Felicity and her welfare, a bit more than that director chappie did about the women he followed in the recent Sex: My British Job.

Unfortunately I'm not totally sure Max is despised by all the porn industry, as you can see if you read the all the comments made below it the film on that link ... and you can google of course for some not-very-critical reviews of his work.

Massive, massive Trigger Warning for this link:

www.rotten.com/library/bio/pornographers/max-hardcore/

which includes the words: "Max Hardcore's name evokes rounds of applause by the porn high-rollers at industry conventions. His fans have rewarded him with a generous income which perches him in a lofty four-story chateau high atop the Pasadena hills, where he continues to crank out controversial, iconoclastic videos meant to stretch the limits of acceptable behavior and obliterate the concept of shame."

If you're a hardcore porn apologist, I'm not surprised you don't want people to watch Hardcore.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 12:00:16

Felicity's creepy agent uses her trip to MH's pad to scare her into doing other stuff.. "so that's the worst there is, this isn't so bad, is it?" So because porn's not all as bad as MH's stuff, we should be grateful and not be bothered about its effect on the men we know watching it.

I've seen first hand what the effects of too much porn can be. The men I knew who were interested in the more serious stuff in the 80s were selfish, creepy, wanted you to do peculiar things, without asking first, didn't care if you didn't want to do them or not, and weren't that bothered if you were enjoying yourself. That was back in the 80s when it was just a few of them. What it must be like now for young women, when all men have easy access to much worse things, makes me shudder for them.

I read that link. Ugh. Ugh.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 21-Oct-13 13:25:35

Even The Sun did an article about the horrible reality of the Porn industry, a self confessed porn addict was invited to a porn shoot for a documentary and came away utterly horrified by the treatment of the women performers and what they were required to do for a normal day's "work".
But what's a bit of emotional and physical trauma when mens' orgasms are concerned, eh??

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