Most women are jailed due to the men in their lives - Vicky Pryce(61 Posts)
Shoplifting accounts for a third of women in prison. Shoplifting.
This could just mean that, of crimes that can result in a prison sentence, shoplifting is the one that women commit most often.
I was looking forward to an answer of sorts, still.....
A probable answer to my above question would be - for a woman found guilty of shoplifting, where she is of previously good character, where there are no aggravating features such as threats made nor involving a child in the crime, early guilty plea - most benches would easily be persuaded to hand down a conditional discharge - meaning no punishment unless within (say) 6-12 months, the woman commits a similar offence - and then she would be re-sentenced for the original offence (as well as the new offence). So imagine again you are the magistrates that has to sentence this woman that has been convicted of a second offence within the set period. What sentence are you looking to impose here now ?
OK well first of all I wasn't on MN yesterday so many many apologies for not responding to you in a timescale of your choosing Beatrix.
Really not sure why you are asking the question in the first place. I am not disputing that the women are sent to jail. As Trills said I was rather more interested that such a significant proportion of women in jail are in for such a relatively minor crime. One that is definitely related to poverty as VerySmallSqueak said. This was vaguely in response to NotDead. I can't imagine that custodial sentences for shoplifting are that great. I also can't imagine that a third of men are in prison for shoplifting. I was just musing really about comparing like for like between sentences for men and women when the make-up of women's crimes are very different to men's. They are far more likely to assist in crime than be the criminal masterminds.
I thought VerySmallSqueak has raised an interesting point with poverty because it touches on the feminization of poverty and men's part in that.
What I was getting at is that it is a gradual process in the main before a woman gets a custodial sentence - probably involving many many repeat offences of shoplifting - initially, the bench would start at a conditional discharge, fines (the magistrates typically impose fine after fine). Often no or little attempt is given to pay of these fines. Then as the same woman keeps on being brought before the bench, they will order pre-sentence reports, try to identify issues, try community based orders - unpaid work in the community and rehabilitation programmes, then if these don't work suspended custodial sentences coupled with more community orders, breaches of these - more shoplifiting until eventually the woman does get a custodial sentence. Any outstanding fines, for whatever original offence she has built up until then are then wiped off the slate at that point.
Then people are shocked at the statistics that there are women that are jailed for shoplifting. I would agree that women ought not to be jailed for such petty offences - but no-one finds themselves in prison at the drop of a hat for shoplifting unless there are very serious aggravating circumstances - they are warned time and time again by the courts of what will eventually happen.
If I had to suggest a solution it would be to vastly improve the provision of community orders so that they actually work.
I'm not disputing any of that. I would hope that is the process. Mind you fining someone who is stealing because they can't afford to live is sadly ironic.
I am not shocked that women are in jail for shoplifting. I am shocked and saddened at the proportion of women in jail for such a minor crime.
As mentioned upthread though, the stats are meaningless in isolation.
They need to be detailed with the equivalent stats for Men so a comparison can be made. At the moment I've no idea if 50% of men are in jail for shoplifting, or whether they get jail for running gangs of shoplifting women - bringing us back to the OP.
Ideally an idea of previous offences would be nice too so you could build up a "story" behind each number, but I can't see that being achievable with publicly available figures.
Very often the reason for the theft are to pay for drug habits, typically (in my day) a £10 bag of heroin. But yes, such women are hardly flush with disposable money - so cutting out the interminable rounds of fines, would take out a large part of the process.
I don't understand your last sentence, what does the proportion have to do with it - each case is judged on its own facts.
Well I think it is sad that a third of women are in prison for a crime born out of desperation. And I am shocked that it is such a high proportion of women.
I still don't understand. In the past I have argued with MRA types, who say that they are shocked that the low proportion of fathers having residence of their children is unfair. They don't seem to realise that fairness has nothing to do with it. A judge at Court doesn't keep tabs of their judgement that day, awarding 50% of all residence cases to fathers and 50% to mothers - just to keep proportions 'fair'. More often that not, it is better for children to stay with mothers and each case is judged on its facts.
In the same way, given that these women have eventually crossed the custody threshold - each case again judged on its facts - the only way for the proportion of their numbers to be smaller would be for more women to be given custodial sentences for other offences - I cant see that is what you would want.
I don't think I'm being obtuse ?
I just want to pick up on something you mentioned kim.
"It seems several well known people who end up in jail come out as experts on the prison system.But it is good for them to see another world."
I think that a former prisoner,whether well known or not,really has an insight to offer that cannot be gauged from statistics. Ms Pryce is speaking from a position that the majority of women have not been in.
In that respect,I think she is better placed to offer her opinion than many.
But,what the actual root cause is,is surely a matter of opinion,rather than a matter of fact,and I still say the most likely base cause is poverty. Poverty has a lot to answer for.Lack of choice.Lack of vision for the future.Lack of educational opportunities.
I think you are trying to find an argument I'm not making Beatrix. In fact I'm not making any argument. I am just expressing sadness that so many women (in terms of the proportions of women in prison) are resorting to crime out of desperation.
I am not arguing that the proportion is too high or they shouldn't be in prison. I was just observing.
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