Sex: My British Job. Channel 4(760 Posts)
Anybody see this? It was just horrific. I really, really hope it reached the right audience: punters and their defenders. I doubt it, but I hope so
Of course no one has a right to a relationship or children either, although some men think they do - mail order brides.
Amsterdam legalised prostitution. The police and Government are now saying it was a disaster. Underage children, trafficked women and violence all increased as a result. Legalisation has been tried in a number of places, it never works.
Has anyone heard of the Nordic Model? This is where you decriminalise those in prostitution, but criminalise the punters. And give help to those in prostitution to help them out of it. There is a UK group lobbying for our Government to adopt this model.
However, the pleasure obviously taken in this statement smacks of dour, sunless, Scandinavian Presbyterianism. This is why male journalists of a certain age think that feminism is only an anti-sex movement
I think that male journalists of a certain age who think feminism is an anti-sex movement are a) not listening to feminists, b) not very clever, c) can't help thinking that women being equal humans somehow takes away something from their own (the male) enjoyment of sex or d) all of the above.
People also have the right not to encounter unnecessary interference in their sex lives
That rather depends upon their predilections, no? It depends upon whose 'rights' you think are more important. The right of people (mostly men) to purchase sex, if that's what they want. The right of other people (mostly women) to sell sex if that's what they wish to do for whatever reason. Or the rights of women not to have their sexual experiences commoditised, packaged and sold; their right not to be abused as a direct result of other's desires to pay for sex or to make this their business.
I would hate to see you working the Samaritans suicide helpline when male clients come on: ‘Think what you have to live for: work, masturbation and death’
I can't see what this adds to the argument. Would it help a suicidal man get over his serious mental health problems (depression etc) to be told it's OK, because you can pay to have sex with a woman who will pretend to like you? And how is the idea that he might be paying to rape or abuse someone (which he might find very arousing, but let's assume he's a decent but desperately lonely bloke) going to help him have a happy life?
Female punters are relevant because the nature of the phenomenon is not fully understood or agreed upon
You may be correct that there is a problem with female punters that nobody has yet realised. I don't know enough to discuss this.
Are adult men trafficked in the same way adult women are, do we know? Note I am not talking about very young men / children who are to be prostituted for mainly men to have sex with.
Can you tell us more about the problem of female punters?
Female punters who are not with their male partner e.g. buying a woman for a threesome, are very rare. Some women copy what men do, thinking that is somehow empowerment. Still doesn't make it right.
With regards to female punters - is there a big population of women paying to have sex with male children?
No. There. Isn't.
The pretence that women's participation in paying for sex is anything like men's, is hollow. It is nonsense.
I would hate to see you working the Samaritans suicide helpline when male clients come on: ‘Think what you have to live for: work, masturbation and death’.
You seriously think the Samaritans would advocate using/abusing potentially vulnerable people for cash, possibly contributing to a decline in their mental health.
What a bizarre argument.
Prostitution is not an acceptable replacement for consensual and enjoyable sexual/physical/social contact due to the damage it does to others.
And I reiterate, so what if a small percentage of buyers are hetero/homosexual women? They are exploiting the sellers in the same way as men, it doesn't suddenly make it ok Why the hell would it And, as they are not even a significant minority, why focus on them?
And, you say you saw the programme? Did you think that sort of life was hunkydory? Exploiting desperate and damaged immigrant women. The talk about men removing condoms had me heaving.
why focus on them
Why ignore them? It is one of the most interesting parts of the discussion.
The Samaritans are a non-profit organisation. My point above was that if you had a client on the line who was suicidal because of sex starvation, 'FFS have a wank' (as suggested above) might not be the most sensitive advice.
Anyone who knows anything about the Samaritans Frodosmum knows they are non-judgemental i.e. they do not inflict their personal opinions on callers. They also know they never tell any caller what to do. But in their own lives Samaritans will have a cross section of personal opinions like anyone else.
Citing the Samaritans is a rubbish comparison.
I don't think most of us are here for an "interesting" abstract discussion. The interestingness (or lack of same) is a by product. We are engaging in a critical discourse, we want to talk about what's important.
It's actually quite harmful in my opinion to treat these things as light chat chat that doesn't matter. It matters.
Sex starvation is a new one on me. I've just been reading a paper on the topic basic human needs. It says "basic biological needs for safe drinking water, adequate foodstuffs, preventative and emergency medical care, and secure and habitable shelter (Wilson 2003). Furthermore, citizens worldwide should have the right to free and unimpeded access to educational opportunities as well as meaningful work (Felice 2003)"
Oddly, nowhere does it say that all men have the basic need to insert their penis into a woman's body.
Now I predict you're thinking you're going to say something about sex being necessary for basic survival of the species, but that's doing OK without prostitution.
...have to dash, can't proof read this
The Samaritans are a non-profit organisation. My point above was that if you had a client on the line who was suicidal because of sex starvation, 'FFS have a wank' (as suggested above) might not be the most sensitive advice
And at what point did I ever say I would say that in a hypothetical situation whilst hypothetically working for the Samaritans.
How utterly, utterly bizarre
My original wank comment was meant to point out that if you are horny and want an orgasm...there is no need to seek out a prostitute or use porn (filmed prostitution), just masturbate. I appreciate some people strongly want physical human contact but I dont think that should be a commodity to buy (for lots of reasons already mentioned...suh as the documentary you are yet to comment on).
"Sex starvation"? Behave, that doesn't even exist except as a misguided concept in someone's head.
We all have needs, women as well as men. As a woman, I have never felt the burning need to pay someone who doesn't want to fuck me, to fuck me.
I saw the documentary and was impressed that it was all about the women and the hardships that they faced. So glad it wasn't gratuitous, or made to seem "sexy". Nick Broomfield is a piece of work though; when that undercover journalist was saying she felt suicidal, I couldn't believe he encouraged her to go back in there.
What's P net please?
That sentence, "buying a woman" is one of the grimmest sentences ever. It's almost like harking back to the days of slavery, with the "buying a slave", urgh.
it's amazing anyone could watch that and dismiss it so utterly.
Given the vertical thinking demonstrated in the comments about my Samaritans reference, it is clear that some people are playing the "loveable buffoon" to provoke a reaction. Either that, or there are many conveyancing solicitors on this site.
As sex starvation is not generally experienced by women, they will not tend to identify with it as a problem.
I worked as a student counsellor in my final year and for some time after graduating, and sex starvation was a prominent concern among young males. It is an embarrassing subject for men to discuss, but when they let their guard down they talk about it in terms of depression, pain and suicidal thoughts. It is clearly crucial to their psychological well-being. It reminded me of that chap in the 1960s who conducted maternal deprivation experiments on infant monkeys, separating them from their mothers to assess the emotional and mental fallout:
"Harry Frederick Harlow was an American psychologist best known for his maternal-separation, dependency needs, and social isolation experiments on rhesus monkeys, which demonstrated the importance of care-giving and companionship in social and cognitive development.
Harlow’s experiments were controversial; they included rearing infant macaques in isolation chambers for up to 24 months, from which they emerged severely disturbed."
I am embarrassed for you. You're reasoning is beyond bizarre: comparing horny men to orphan monkeys?!
You show a lot of compassion for sex-starved men...do you have any for the women they use; the women shown in the documentary?
"Sex starvation" does not justify using and abusing potentially vulnerable people for cash. HTH
What the fuck is 'sex starvation' when it is at home?
Please don't answer that.
"As sex starvation is not generally experienced by women, they will not tend to identify with it as a problem."
What a load of bull. What you are describing is using your role as a student counsellor to socialise men into believing they have an entitlement to sex. Well done.
Beachcomber What the fuck is 'sex starvation' when it is at home?
It's an utter fallacy, that's what it is. Comparing such a tub of crap to Harlow's work is.... well, it's pretty ridiculous.
Unless we're trying to compare using a human being as a glorified wank sock to maternal deprivation, then it's also a strawman. The only reason young men feel suicidal if they don't get the sex they believe they deserve, is because society, patriarchal society, teaches them that they are entitled to sex, as often and as much as they want, which plays right into the realms of rape culture. No one is entitled to sex, no one has any right to sex.
I'm actually pretty shocked that anyone could have such odd ideas. No idea why I'm shocked though, people seem capable of believing all sorts of crap.
So you do admit that there are human needs other than the basic biological survival needs referred to above? This was being denied on this thread. And all I had to do was remind you of the more ‘female-friendly’ example of maternal deprivation, rather than sexual deprivation, and suddenly everyone is nodding in agreement.
Before Harlow, concepts such as maternal deprivation and the sensibilities of animals drew a complete blank with most of the population, but this changed, particularly when the film of the distressed animals was made public. Indeed, it is believed that this was the point at which the animal liberation movement was born. I submit that much of human sexuality is, similarly, poorly understood and that there are surprising new discoveries yet to be made.
For the record, counsellors do not ‘socialise’ or brainwash clients. Much of the work involves the fact that the latter can talk in a situation in which they will be listened to and understood and in which they will receive some empathy. Suggestions of active intervention are ill-founded.
"I submit that much of human sexuality is, similarly, poorly understood"
Don't let that stop you trotting out crap about sex starvation and women not experiencing it though.
No suggestion of active intervention was made.
"socialis(ing) men into believing they have an entitlement to sex" would surely constitute active intervention?
"sex starvation and women not experiencing it though"
Please explain yourself. In what circumstances do you think that this happens to women? So that there is no misunderstanding.
A counsellor is involved in socialising men by disseminating cultural and social norms, including the idea that men are entitled to have access to women's bodies for sex and/or that they have a "need" for sex.
Sex starvation does not exist for men or women.
Men and women both experience prolonged periods when they would like to have sex but cannot, for a number of reasons.
How is giving empathy not active intervention?
Mathanxiety -- No matter what the circumstances, Frodosmum, nobody has an absolute right to a sex life or a sexual experience.
Frodosmum -- I hope that you realise that this applies to other things in life. For example, nobody has an absolute right to relationships or an absolute right to have children. These also require the active consent of a second party, but you don’t hear a lot about that.
Of course I realise this applies to every area of human life. On a thread about prostitution I think it was fair to use the example of a sexual experience as one item nobody has an absolute right to, and since you were suggesting that there are valid reasons why it is fine for one person to buy an experience of the body of another it was an appropriate response.
Nobody has an absolute right to have children or anything else they have their heart set on even if they can afford the item. Assessing the impact of satisfying our desires on others or on the planet we leave to our descendants if any is necessary before we decide how to get our needs filled. The decision to have a child in particular requires much thought and responsible consideration since the child will not be consulted about its desire for life before it is conceived. Or probably afterwards either. The decision to acquire an ivory figurine or goods known to be stolen are other examples where your decision might be easy. But you also might want to think twice about a Hummer or any other vehicle that will pass anything but a petrol pump, or clothing made in a sweatshop. I'm sure there are many other examples.
"The decision to have a child in particular requires much thought and responsible consideration since the child will not be consulted about its desire for life before it is conceived."
Very good. I have waited decades to hear someone say that.
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