OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

[curlew]

It's a key part of the MRA agenda. Some MRA even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.

I absolutely agree that sex should always be consensual,and if a man has been forced, by either physical or psychological means into sex, then he has been raped and deserved of course to be taken seriously, and for the perpetrator to be charged and ,nif found guilty, convicted. And I know that an erection is a physiological response, and does not necessarily mean that a man actually wants to have sex.

But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?

[AmberLeaf]

I have 'heard' this ie read on forums such as this mainly in regard to men who have been 'forced' into becoming fathers to children they then went onto walk away from [or to protest against having to be financially responsible for]

I feel dubious about such claims for various reasons.

I have no idea about the prevalence of this though as I don't think my example above is necessarily representative on the whole.

I have seen a few examples of sexual harassment mainly in the workplace of younger males by groups of older women though, which was dismissed often as 'he loves it' and 'men are always up for it' not seen or heard of it going further [ie forced penetration] though.

I can't imagine it being commonplace in the way that male to female rape is.

[curlew]

Yes, I think the idea of "forced fatherhood" has been around for ages. It's the idea with all the psychological fall out that follows that is being talked about now, and which I am struggling with.

[curlew]

Sorry," it's the idea of rape, with all the psychological fall out........"

[SinisterSal]

how would you begin to collate figures? Somehow I am sensing that they will be in dispute whatever you do.

[OctopusPete8]

I agree I often see young men made to feel uncomfortable my large groups of quite predatory women ie. on nights out but that's it really.

[SinisterSal]

I can understand that too Octopus. But 'they love it really! ' Good old gender stereotyping strikes again! Join us if you wish to do away with it.

[DuelingFanjo]

The problem I have is with the idea that a man can be 'forced to penetrate against his will' and I don't mean that I disbelieve that an erection is a psychological response. What I mean is that I don't think most women have the physical strength to make a man penetrate them through force. I think that many more men do have the strength and the equipment to force their penis into someone. That's why male on male and male on female rape is so much more prevalent.

[slug]

Well, much as I would love to point out that if they didn't want to be raped by a woman they shouldn't go getting drunk and flaunting their manliness in the face of all those women who simply can't help themselves in the face of a well turned testicle it might be worth pointing out to them that the legal definition of rape explicitly mentions men doing the act.

1. A person (A) commits an offence if?
   (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
   (b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
   (c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
   
   I rather suspect "sperm stealing" is just another mealy mouthed way of trying to get out of supporting their children.
   
   If the MRA is a bit more intelligent (and I strongly doubt that any of them can fully process this argument) then suggesting that the patriarchy is failing these young men as well. The rape myth that men can't help themselves around any woman occasionally backfires on them.

[Sinful1]

As for the women not having the strength to rape a man or force him. Are you fucking kidding me?

So any woman who is raped who doesn't have a completely pulverised face from a severe beating wouldn't be classed as rapped in your book?



I honestly can't believe that in a feminist forum the argument that the victim "should have fought harder" was dates to be raised

[AmberLeaf]

I think the point was that most men are stronger than most women.

[curlew]

You may have noticed that I said that if a man "is forced by physical or psychological means......"

Sinful1- it would be great if we could try and keep this discussion as cool as possible. I really want to explore the subject, and we can't do that if people start swearing in their first posts!

[scallopsrgreat]

I think it is a mistake to start off the discussion with the assumption that men and women are on an equal footing here (I am not suggesting you were doing this curlew btw - just later posts are suggesting this might be where the discussion is heading). It is unhelpful to ignore the power dynamics going on, both physically and structurally as in societal norms, oppression etc.

Men are not oppressed by women. Men have used rape to oppress women for centuries. Men (in general) are stronger than women. We live in a rape culture (against women). That immediately puts the power in men's favour. So making the same scenarios try and fit for both men and women is a false equivalence.

[curlew]

I agree with you, scallops. However, I deliberately tried to make my opening post as neutral as possible. I wanted to see if it was possible for me to look at the situation without any preconceived ideas. My feminism is so much a part of my being that there being any sort of equivalence here is something I find I can't even think about. When I think of a male rape victim I see someone who has been brutalised by another man. But I don't want to automatically dismiss the idea of male victims of women. Not without proper thought and discussion anyway.

[Sinful1]

Gotta love the use of "rape culture" to justify victim blaming.

Please next time.theres a rape thread say the victim.should have fought harder

[curlew]

Nobody is victim blaming. Please, Sinful1, let's have a discussion?

[scallopsrgreat]

I wasn't doing any victim blaming Sinful1. Not sure how you are reading that into my posts. But hey ho, clearly you have an agenda.

[scallopsrgreat]

I totally understand what you were doing curlew, definitely. I don't think DuellingFanjo was wrong to bring up one element of the power dynamic as to why far more women are raped by men than vice versa and why far more men are raped by other men than by women.

[scallopsrgreat]

And just to clarify I was thinking more with the rape culture thing, that women (in general) are conditioned to be meeker, less violent, not to rock the boat, watch what they are doing and where they are and who they are with to avoid rape. Much much more so than men.

However, a man being drunk or drugged would alter the physical dynamic certainly. But still a female rapist would need that sense of entitlement to sexually assault the man and that is something that tends to be conditioned out of women. I'm doing a class analysis here - again for clarification.

[KidFromVault101]

So what are the MRAs doing about it?

[MrsCakesPremonition]

I suspect that MRAs are confusing rape with sexual assault. If rape is defined as non-consensual penetration with a penis, then it is very unlikely that many men are raped by women. However, I'm sure that there are many more men who are sexually assaulted by women who are unable to believe that a man wouldn't welcome their attentions with open arms.

[TheGirlFromIpanema]

This can't possibly be a serious discussion as you have got the very definition of the word rape wrong from the off.

Women cannot rape.

They can sexually assault.

But lets be clear here.

[curlew]

I know the legal definition of rape.

But the word is being used to mean forced penetration by MRA- and I for the purposes of this discussion I decided to use it in a broader sense.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

But it's not forceful penetration because the person using force isn't doing the penetration. It's sexual assault.

I don't doubt that being coerced into sex and made to feel like they have to go along with something (either by other men, or the woman, or a group of women) happens. Maybe the women who do this or condone or encourage this, are part of the faux emancipation 'laddish' culture? Taking on the worst traits of the male culture and adopting them as their own? To be equal to men we have to dominate them in the same way they do us? My brain is meandering a bit, sorry.

[NiceTabard]

I would imagine that men are far more likely to be raped by other men, than be forced into penetrating a woman. What do the sites you have seen have to day on that topic?

[AFishWithoutABicycle]

When I was 18 I was away on a gap year. A girl on the same programme started a romance with an 18 year old guy from a different country. He was religious and didnt believe in sex before marriage. He did however consent to doing lots of other naked stuff with her, but drew the line at penetration.
One night while they were missing around she jumped on him (if you know what I mean). He was really upset and immediately ran out. I never really talked to him about it but she fully admitted what she did and said 'he needed to get over it' and he 'clearly wanted to'.
He broke things off with her and she said he was completely over the top about it all. I often wonder what would have happend if it was the other way round. At the time it didnt even occur to me to report it. I hope it didnt, but I suspect it deeply affected him.
Woman raping men does happen, she absolutely knew she didn't have consent!