mens understanding

[spence82]

Hi all

I've been discussing feminism with a lady who I work with and she recommended this site for a discussion.

As horrible as this sounds I was unaware of how severe sexism still is. I was shown the everyday sexism site and was really shocked.

It makes me feel ignorant thinking that in Britain we had true equal rights.

I'd love to educate myself further so can anyone recommend any good reading?

[Chubfuddler]

Welcome spence. I think it comes as a shock to many women too.

Take a look through the threads on this board, there are many useful links.

Sadly many thoughtful and insightful posts in this section are deleted because the thread on which they are posted has to be deleted after it descends into a big fight. It seems to be a tried and tested silencing technique.

[spence82]

I will certainly be taking an interest in the topics.

This may be a bit of a general question but what are the current main goals of feminism? How can equality be defined? Is it more women in the board room? Equal childcare responsibilities etc?

[Chubfuddler]

Well you seem to be looking for answers which don't really exist. Feminism isn't really a club or a movement. There's no charter.

I'd quite like to be treated like a human being tbh.

There are loads of blogs and sites out there, just google feminism.

[spence82]

Apologies as I said I've been shockingly ignorant of things. I will have a look around.

[Chubfuddler]

Don't apologise, it's quite understandable to want "answers" pronto. Others who post here regularly are a bit more academic than me, I'm sure if you bump the thread later you'll get some more useful responses.

[spence82]

Thanks I will do.

I'm looking forward to hearing others opinions. I'm sure there are many men who are in the same boat as me.

[AmandaPandtheNightmareMonsters]

You might find some of the more easily accessible books at good starting points? Kat Banyard's The Equality Illusion is easy to read and quite eye opening.

[spence82]

Thanks for the recommendation I can see a lot of reading coming my way

I suppose its easy living in a bubble when your a man and not noticing things. Do you think things will get better with each passing generation? I really hope so

[Chubfuddler]

I think a lot of women live in a bubble about these things, particularly if they are white, able bodied and well educated.

I would like to think things are getting better but in many ways due to the lad mag culture and all that attends on it, I think things are getting worse.

[spence82]

That's an interesting point about lads mags. I do know of people that used to read those mags but grew out of it if that makes sense?

I suppose if its the younger men who are reading them though they are more suggestible. I believe there is a campaign against those types of mags?

[Keepithidden]

Hello Spence, another recent newcomer to the world of feminism here. It was a shock to see how much privelidge we males have in the world and now the scales have (partially) fallen from my eyes it is apparent everywhere, the media seem to be particularly good at forcefeeding society a mysigistic version of reality (that translates into reality of course!).

I'd second the recommendation about the Equality Illusion, it was the first feminist book I read and was very easy to read. The more complicated stuff fries my brain (a bit like most sociolopolitical writing) but there's a wealth of easier to access literature out there. The folks here will no doubt recommend some more when you feel the need for it.

One word of caution though, I'd found I wasn't quite the feminist thinking male I thought I was pretty quickly (equality isn't easy in our world), so be prepared to have your thinking, writing and speaking challenged regularly. I'm learning to change my attitude and think about what I'm saying, but I still catch myself saying things with a mysogynisitic edge to them, such as the classic "helping out with the housework". If you post regularly on here you'll probably be called to account for some of the ways you phrase your posts, it's very easy to be offended by this, but treat it as a way of thinking about what you meant rather than as a personal insult and you'll be good.

Hope all that helps.

[Ongle]

Good day, Spence and Keep. I am male, and a relative newcomer to feminism, though I would not describe myself as a convert, primarily based on the opinions and attitudes I see constantly regurgitated on here.

What brought feminism to your attention? If you have a female partner, are they feminists?

[adacaby]

I once posted something on the "everyday sexism" site. But it wasn't approved (posts are moderated). Turns out it's for women only....

[TwoStepsBeyond]

That sounds unlikely adacaby, I imagine you probably posted something which the moderators found offensive. They wouldn't discriminate against you because of your gender, that is the whole essence of feminism!

[TheContrastOfWhiteOnWhite]

TwoSteps - This particular poster has just had a really, really nasty troll thread deleted. Ignore him.

[Keepithidden]

Hello Ongle, I don't really see myself as a convert either, it's not really a two sided thing in my mind just an extension of my own awareness which isn't limited purely to learning about feminism, it covers a whole range of other philosophies that I'm learning more about too. A kind of mental 'enlightenment', although that word is wrong, because the more I learn the more I realise how little I do know (that old paradox).

I started looking into feminism when I was trying to figure out how to fix my marriage. My wife probably has feminist leanings, certainly she believes in equality, but I don't think she's read much on the philosophy, politics and history behind it. I suspect as DD and DS grow up and start looking into it, then it will become a bit more of a discussion subject in our home.

[CailinDana]

I think that the day a male child can choose to wear a dress (as many do, including my ds) and nothing is thought of it then I will feel anothet great leap has been made for feminism. Might sound silly but I think that change will represent a huge shift in thinking.

[scallopsrgreat]

I don't think it is a silly point at all CailinDana. I agree with the huge shift in thinking that would require and it would be a great marker of how far things have come.

[Keepithidden]

I agree it doesn't sound silly, but I'm also wondering why a male child can wear a dress and nothing is thought of it. Shouldn't it be a male without age restriction? After all, is there something about a dress that means it is particulalrly suited to the female physiology compared to a males? There's been no such barriers when the roles are reversed (women wearing traditional male clothes), it's interesting that the restrictions are this way round when nornally in society it's reversed, i.e. more restrictions on women.

Sorry, slight tangent to the thread there! Just made me think a bit.

[CailinDana]

I said child because the issue of grown men wearing dresses is less straightfoward in terms of transvestites seeing it as an expression of who they are etc. With children it's simply a case of a child wanting to try out something that they like. Yet it's met with embarrassment and even anger and revulsion.
It's not a restriction as such hidden it's more an expression of the inferiority of anything "female." It's fine for the "weaker" sex (ie girls) to emulate the "stronger" sex (ie boys) whereas boys emulating girls is embarrassing because the boy is lowering himself and making himself "weak." Boys=normal, strong, admirable girls="other" weak frivolous and silly.

[Keepithidden]

You've thought about this a lot more than I have Cailin.

Thanks for the explanations.

[Darkesteyes]

Ian McEwan > Quotes > Quotable Quote





?Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short and wear shirts and boots because it's okay to be a boy; for girls it's like promotion. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, according to you, because secretly you believe that being a girl is degrading.?

― Ian McEwan, The Cement Garden

[AmandapandtheNightmareMonsters]

Ooh, I quote that all the time. Although I actually prefer the tv version:

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, because it's OK to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think that being a girl is degrading.

[Darkesteyes]

YY Amanda I first heard it when Madonna used it at the beginning of What it Feels Like For a Girl (album version)

[libertarianj]

For a bit of contrast, how about reading - The Sex Myth: Why Everything We're Told is Wrong by Brooke Magnanti?

www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Myth-Everything-Were-Wrong/dp/0297866397?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21