Not putting the man in your life at the centre of your life

(127 Posts)
BasilBabyEater Sun 11-Aug-13 08:24:35

I came across this really interesting article this morning and thought I'd share

feministcurrent.com/7784/on-feminism-writing-and-doing-womanhood-wrong/

Am still thinking about it so am not going to comment but thought others might like to mull it over too.

SinisterSal Wed 14-Aug-13 09:52:53

Stop insulting us Petey.

You live in your own bubble and your strategies work there, which is great, but nothing is universal. Open your eyes to the rest of the world. Then you may have something more helpful to say.

Portofino Tue 13-Aug-13 22:18:27

Feminism is not just about who does the washing up either. The wife work issue is just one part of it. I can "not put up with any shit" in my house too, but that doesn't help at work for example, or when I have taken food to a friend whose Dh has buggered off and left her in a foreign country with 4 kids and no money.

petey, I imagine that most of us on here live what we preach. That doesn't mean we can't show empathy for those who don't, and try to find a way to support and encourage them that doesn't just involve telling them to put on their big girl panties and be like you. hmm

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Tue 13-Aug-13 22:02:06

petey

I am "living it" thank you very much hmm

I said upthread that I reckon I would struggle to find a genuine man to "live it" with.

You have one. You are very fucking fortunate. Well done.

Suddenly getting high self esteem (erm, how by the way? People do not chose to wallow about with low self esteem, it's usually due to life circumstances you have been fortunate enough to avoid) and 'not taking any shit' will not suddenly make a wealth of genuine feminist men appear.

I'm not devastated about that, I am quite happy to be single atm than compromise.

HTH

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 08:36:46

Of course I care about this else I would do wifework wouldnt I? I tell you one thing my dds wont be doing any of this, and there is no chance they will. Same as my mum made sure I wouldnt have to do it. The people on heres dcs still have a chance to not have to do this, but people have to stop talking and start living it. Why is there invidible work in peoples homes? Make that work notice. If you dont then no matter what you say then your kids will grow up the same.y dds will have to be around all those people with dysfunctional views on what women should do. Dh and I already tell amd show our 5 year old all of this, and show it her every day.

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 08:21:13

I am working in a different role now in management. I have been in the military, banking and central government.

I am more in to a revolution than some on here. I dont see the point in people moaning about it 3/4 years since I was last on here, but all theorising and not actually changing things tbh. I think I am part of the revolution showing my peers, children and wider society that I dont have to do this tbh. I live what I preach.

ZutAlorsDidier Tue 13-Aug-13 08:14:22

Petey, you're right - 29 is not that young. Old enough to stop boring on endlessly while refusing to listen to others. The enfant terrible thing is wearing a little thin.

I won't address you again (and will leave any thread you manage to make all about you) so apologies in advance if this post is ling and didactic. I will make it as succinct as I can so we can both move on.

- don't bother with feminism if you don't want to. But stop waiting feminists' time with the endlessly repetitious rehearsal of your personal experience as universal truth.

- Women in many contexts are actively punished for "expecting more". It is seen as being uppity. Being assertive about trying to get equal treatment with men has materially damaged my career. If I remember rightly, you work in childcare. I work in media. The latter is a traditionally privileged man's world and they fight tooth and nail to keep it that way and keep the spoils. The former is traditionally women's work and there is no vested interest in punishing confident women in it. You cannot extrapolate.

Similarly, in home life, your culture is not universal. I am not from secular English culture and I do not recognize the world you talk about.

Again, at home, many women are punished with violence for being "uppity". This is a material fact of life and when you deny it you insult them.

Finally, go and find a cause you care about and invest your energy in it. Seriously. We need a revolution. If you can't find it in your heart to fight the gender wars, fight the class wars or the race wars or something. The mn feminists aren't oppressing you. Go and put all that energy somewhere good.

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 00:18:23

I have been go karting for a hen night. I have also done rock climbing, thats really good. I have done the whole pissed in a field hen night, but have to say that was mainly cause we were too tight to pay for a hotel.

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 13-Aug-13 00:12:33

Oh god, yes, I hate that.

Alternative popular stag dos for men other than getting drunk and leering at strippers: Paintballing, go-karting, other kind of race day thing, white water rafting, man camping, some kind of sport themed thing.

Alternative popular hen nights for women other than getting drunk and laughing at chippendales: Spa day. That's basically it. Or one I saw advertised in a shop window called felt basket making, with tea and cakes provided. confused

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 00:11:25

Sports and fitness are great to get in to. I love going on runs, zumba, kettlecise, circuits etc. I do pampering I suppose but usually only massages and facials as love the feel of it all.

AnyOldFucker Tue 13-Aug-13 00:05:41

Gawd save us from Fucking Pampering !

Women are socialized out of having hobbies, or interests other than men, at quite an early age, as well. I actually think that hobbies and interests are good and everyone should have them, but what's generally marketed to women as a hobby or a fun experience is 'pampering', which is just consumerism and making yourself look attractive to men.

YoniBottsBumgina Mon 12-Aug-13 23:48:55

Sorry - again this evening, thread moved on a lot by the time I posted. That was relating to the discussion about finding a "good man" and educating him vs being single forever vs putting up with a sexist man. I was meaning to just say how it works for me rather than just blathering on about my relationship for no reason.

I don't try to educate DP because I don't think it matters that much whether he understands what it's like to live with sexism. The fact that he doesn't promote it and displays utter indignance and confusion when he witnesses it is enough for me. I get the odd teeth gritting moment when he makes some comment that makes it really clear he doesn't get it, or when he wants to watch Coupling, I actually banned him from this once when I had PMT because it was making me stabby but 99% of the time it doesn't actually matter - yeah, it would be great if he challenged sexism when he heard it etc rather than just being shock but in the grand scheme of things it isn't that important to me, what's important to me is that he wouldn't act that way personally.

YoniBottsBumgina Mon 12-Aug-13 23:37:06

I know what you mean OP. I only know three, maybe four men out of all of the men I know who I would consider "non-sexist". And even they slip into saying or doing things that make me want to point out "Your privilege is showing" every now and again. (Plus, I met two of the "definite" ones on the internet, so it's not exactly putting the votes in for randomly running across non-sexist men.)

For example, DP made an offhand comment to me the other day that I would get on with some women that he met because "They have a really feminist household! Everything gets run by them, it might be the mens' names on everything but nothing gets done until it's been run by the women, they're in charge and make all the decisions." confused

I mentioned this to my friend and she looked equally unimpressed and immediately said "God, what a nightmare. That sounds exhausting!" grin I think sometimes women just get it in a way that men have to consciously learn and look for and think about deeply, not fleetingly, to understand. We understand sexism inherently by living it. Men are in the position of privilege when compared to women, and part of having privilege is not being aware that you are privileged even if you're sort of vaguely aware that the "other" group are disadvantaged.

However, DP grew up in a very female-heavy household and was always brought up not to even consider that women might not be able to do the things men do. So often when he is saying/doing stuff which is privileged it's because he literally doesn't know that <whatever thing> is particularly more difficult for women or frowned upon for women or whatever because in his experience, women do exactly the same things as men, and nobody questions it for a second. Plus, he treats men and women the same (in general and) in terms of hiring employees etc so he was baffled when I was stressing about certain things in a job application because of being a woman etc. Little things like that, and it does bother me, but it only comes out occasionally. Our relationship works because we feel on a level with each other and we have shared goals and values. I do not have to micromanage the housework for example - he's more likely to micromanage me.

So although he's not a perfect feminist all the time, because his heart is in the right place and his intentions are genuine, it's not an issue for me that he doesn't understand what it is like to be a woman. Of course he doesn't, because he isn't one.

I love this article about "co piloting" in a relationship - it sums it up for me. If we have shared values it perhaps doesn't matter so much how we express those values. I know that despite his sometimes infuriating or clumsy way of expressing things, he believes that men and women are of equal value and standing, it's just that he calls that normal and I call it feminism. He thinks that the majority of people in the world already think this and it's just a few idiots who don't, I can see there is still a really fucking long way to go, but I admire his enthusiasm.

ZutAlorsDidier Mon 12-Aug-13 23:35:22

not sure I remember right - are you the poster who was always going on about how feminism wasn't necessary because your husband is brilliant at ironing and you can't iron anything and blah blah blah?
Please let there not be two such banal, simplistic, self righteous tirelessly repetitive junglings

ZutAlorsDidier Mon 12-Aug-13 23:30:18

peteypiranha, were you once called Sunnysomething?

My dd now has a 'hobby' that is traditionally a man's sport. I am extremely proud of her and she whips the arse off boys her age. This makes me happy.

I agree that we subconsciously fall into roles without realising eg my DH usually drives, sometimes we go to watch him playing sports but at the same time I challenge anything he ever says that smacks of sexism for the sake of my two DDs.

I like to think I am a feminist and will argue with anyone about anything if it seems unfair but I also know that I always make the tea. (DH does his fair share and the rest mind..... )

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 22:43:01

Its not because its what men like tbh its what people like. No one likes it when people dont have opinions, people like it when people are true to themselves. There is no reward for being a martyr.

SinisterSal Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:42

x posts with Blistory

SinisterSal Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:11

Sorry but I have to LOL at being a strong independent take no shit kinda character... because it's what men like!

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:02

petey for someone who advocates women being strong, you seem to do a lot of blaming and censuring of them

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 22:27:31

How very macho you are Petey

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 21:48:02

I am not a strong woman for that reason. If dh didnt like it he knows where the door is even if I have 2 kids or 7 kids with him. I do what I do and wont change for him, never have and never will and if he doesnt like it he isnt the right man for me.

Blistory Mon 12-Aug-13 21:44:36

But you keep admitting that you are a strong women because thats what men like. So you're trying to please men too but in a different way.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 21:36:12

I am not talking about abused women whose husbands rape or abuse them. I am talking about all these women on threads like this one saying their men are decent husbands and fathers. If they really believe that then make the men prove it. If they dont then you know they dont really love or respect you.

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