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'Cock tease'(94 Posts)
DH and I just been discussing this expression and I'm having difficulty explaining why I find it so repulsive.
My usually liberal and progressive DH has shocked me to be honest: he says that there are women who deliberately go out in skimpy outfits and act in a sexually provocative way only to later make it clear to a guy they were flirting with that sex absolutely isn't on the cards. I say they're perfectly entitled to do this, he agrees, but says in some women it's a form of deliberate manipulation, hence the derogative label being applied to them.
I think there are 2 main things which are pissing me off the most:
The phrase itself (it's actually 'virgin bitch' in his native language which I think is even worse) is so bloody dehumanizing. As if female behaviour should automatically be viewed through a penis-shaped lens.
And also, the spectrum of application is huge... where does dressing attractively and behaving in a flirty manner end (if that's even allowed ) and 'cock teasing' begin? it just seems to be a label to exert power.
Bloody hell I'm cross. I'm having difficulty articulating myself.
I've seen people lead each other on before emotionally. Now why don't we have a specific term for men who lead women on in order to get laid?
We do have terms but, like
all most critical terms for bad behaviour that is preponderantly male, they carry positive connotations. 'Player', for example. I find I'm more interested in the assumption that women have sex in order to secure a relationship. This is yet another 'gatekeeper' interpretation of women's sexuality, isn't it? I don't think young people see things this way so much any more, but there's still an enormous amount of culture to reinforce it.
He did apologise when it was pointed out that he'd been a little patronising.
thanks for mansplaining that dervel
There is a sexual/social element to it though, it happens in bars and pubs with alcohol but would be extremely odd in a coffee bar.
Likewise odd for a man to ask a man, or a woman a woman unless they were looking for a connection.
Is it rude to walk up to someone, ask them to buy you a drink then walk off?
Yes, that's quite rude. I don't think it's exploitative, but it's rude.
Eyes i concede that there are a lot of guys with this mentality.
Love the cartoon!
Apologies for going off at a tangent.
'I'm sure a lot of these guys would be more interested in being the centre of attention then getting their leg over.'
Sun, for a lot of men the two options are the same. 'If I'm the centre of attention, how can you not want to sleep with me?'
That doesn't make them a 'cock-tease' Sunrising, which is what this thread is about. We aren't the ones doing the assuming btw. The men calling women cock-teases are doing the assuming.
Sorry garlic I do have a tendency run away with myself and my own self importance. Apologies, what I should have said is that I take all this as a given, but this thread has been very interesting and I think thanks to buffy has caused me to approach the issue from a hitherto (at least by me) unexplored perspective which has really interesting ramifications I'm keen to explore. Again sorry for my rudeness.
Why does everyone on here assume that the motivating factor for being taken in by one of these Women is sex??
Men get taken in for reasons of loneliness and (or) confidence issues. I'm sure a lot of these guys would be more interested in being the centre of attention then getting their leg over. As I said previously It's almost always this type who these Women target. You're right buying a Woman a drink isn't a sexual contract, but she should at least show him some common decency and not exploit the poor guy.
Sorry Dervel you're on coffee duty today... Milk, no sugar please love
c) Flirting isn't a promise of sex.
Get over yourselves, bigheads.
d) No-one's entitled to sex, ever.
Would it be terribly churlish of me to enquire who appointed you as chair of this meeting, Dervel?
Lol @Buffy I see what you did there! ;-)
To be honest I used the leading people on statement more as a generality rather than specifically to do with sex, I've seen people lead each other on before emotionally. Now why don't we have a specific term for men who lead women on in order to get laid? In my opinion that is the greater sin.
Finally just to directly put this cock-tease nonsense to bed once and for all. I think the consensus of opinion is that a) Drinks do not mean sex b) there are so many reasons someone may not want sex or change their mind can't we just give people the benefit of the doubt?
If I were a woman I think I would be incandescent with annoyance at the subtle and not so subtle ways the deck is still stacked against my gender
Nah love, you're over thinking it. Don't be so sensitive!
Indeed, even "leading people on" as a phrase has its implications. It suggests that there are certain things that people do which entitle the other one to expect sex (and also to feel a bit aggrieved if that implicit promise isn't kept).
Yes, sure I agree with most of that Dervel.
But regarding "leading people on" I just don't think everyone can know at a very early stage in a new encounter/relationship where it might lead.
So, I just think it's a rather flawed concept.
Also people seem to have difficulty accepting flirtation as a natural and good/inevitable/harmless style of human interaction.
Buffy the way I like to think of it is that feminism is a conversation the human race is having with itself. Apart from central pillars that most agree on, there is a lot of sometimes at first glance conflicting ideas.
I think for me a lot of these elements can be reconciled with more thought and discussion. Just as I think feminism itself can be reconciled into a safe and equal society. I also cannot stress this enough feminism benefits men. The advance made so far means I can be very hands on with my baby son, who is the single most important and rewarding part of my life. This would have been unthinkable several generations ago.
In fact a worrying thought that just occurs to me is that I still have my male privilege in addition to benefits afforded by feminism making things a bit more equal. If I were a woman I think I would be incandescent with annoyance at the subtle and not so subtle ways the deck is still stacked against my gender.
This thread has underlined to me how we use language to maintain the status quo. Taking cock-tease as an example we take leading people on (an understandably bad thing to do, which most reasonable people would agree is undesirable behaviour) then we attach a gender tag to it for no other reason than to undermine half of us.
.. actually, there are not-sarcastic replies, as well ... maybe I need another lie-down!
It wasn't your post, Doc, I think I was looking for a clear refutation of Sunrise's apparent point ... now I'm less tired, I can see there were a few sarcastic posts
Garlic if it was my post that confused then it was sarcastic, of course drink buying doesn't equal sex.
I almost hate to say it as I feel I am shifting towards an interpetation of feminism I always felt was perhaps being over sensitive, but it looks as if a lot of the gender based or linked derogatory remarks betray either a scrutiny female behaviour is held to that men simply aren't (much like the slut/stud incongruency), or potentially something even more sinister.
That's been my experience as well Dervel. I was never brought up to think that women were inferior to men or that my life choices were in any way restricted. Neither my parents or my experiences at school made me think this, at the time. In my 20s I would probably have laughed (inside my head, otherwise it would have been rude) at someone who had an issue with a girlie calendar or Page 3. I wouldn't have been remotely bothered by it, I would have seen it as completely irrelevant to me.
Now, not so much
I think that this can often be the sticking point between feminists and people-who-want-equality-but-don't-like-the-label. Feminists have accepted the argument that these tacit cultural eddies that swirl around us make things unequal, other people do not or won't recognise them or their influence on society and therefore how it treats women...
But if feminists try and put forward this view, they are often dismissed as being over sensitive (or my favourite 'over-thinking it') or of telling other women they are brainwashed.
just because someone may be doing stuff that would make someone think they were a cock tease, doesnt translate to anyone being entitled to having sex with them.
Which we is that?
No, whatever the hopes and expectations of one party might be, no one is entitled to sex. Certainly not as a transaction in exchange for drinks. Or a meal. or any other exchange.
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