Charles Saatchi. Oscar Pistorius, Roman Polanski, John Leslie, Mel Gibson, Charlie Sheen, J Simpson, Jimmy Savile, Chris Brown, Paul Gasgoigne,

(170 Posts)
Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 00:52:26

You know the way whenever we discuss DV, the menz crawl out and start the 'women commit DC just as much as men' routine?

Well, can anyone give me a list of high profile / world famous / Olympian women who have been photographed or found guilty or admitted to DV or sexual abuse?

BubblesOfBliss Sun 23-Jun-13 22:39:37

smile

PromQueenWithin Sun 23-Jun-13 09:23:18

SWM can't hold prvilege of other SWM surely?

This is a good point OMC and one I've been mulling over. Some SWM do hold class privilege and able-bodied privilege over other SWM but I don't think that's what you meant...?

Perhaps the use of violence to maintain ones's status in an all male hierarchy such as prison (self preservation, if you will) isn't about privilege in itself. I assume women do this as well in female prisons? My vast experience of, ahem, a few TV programmes suggest this might be the case. I do think that on the whole, men have the 'privilege' to use violence casually to assert status, whereas women, on the whole, don't.

To conclude: uh, dunno.

runningforthebusinheels Sat 22-Jun-13 09:25:13

Octopus maybe has a point. Men in our society expect to be dominant, they are raised to be in charge. Women culturally are raised as 'caring' and 'nurturing'. Women's equality in the workplace is still a struggle, women struggle to be taken seriously in politics, in the boardroom. Women get get fewer chances to speak in debates, and are listened to less.

Wives and mothers are expected to do the lions share of the housework, childcare - whilst it is still culturally expected that the man continues full time work/career. The man is still considered in charge. I think it follows on from this that men can become violent to women if they don't know their place. If women try to assert themselves. A man maybe tries to reassert control over his wife using his fists. Show her who's boss.

In the past patriarchy meant that women and children were chattel - to their husbands and fathers. Men now still often consider that they own their wives and children. It is well known that leaving her partner is a most dangerous time for a woman - many of the 2 women per week murdered by their partner are murdered in actually trying to escape them.

I think greater equality for women would reduce domestic violence, because a lot of it is a man using his fists to get the control he thinks he should have over the woman. Think Denis Waterman. But the men have to relinquish the control they think they think they should have over their wives - accept women as their equals - and society has to stop victim blaming.

But I don't think it follows that greater equality would increase the violence perpetrated by women, as women have not raised to feel like the dominant sex.

OctopusPete8 Fri 21-Jun-13 15:13:23

Just saw the post, I'm obviously quite literate, just speed typing, and missed out a few words so the sentences are garbled to read, it's quite clear to see. English is not my mother tongue shall we say & I am not a man, I don't see what difference that would make anyway.

The point I was making is that you often read about PA's being treat like shit by their celeb employer's both male and female, they are often treat as lesser people who are simply there to serve,

Hmmm, shall we think who fills that role in 'traditional, common relationships'

OneMoreChap Fri 21-Jun-13 12:22:51

Yes but,

Isn't privilege a group thing rather than an individual thing; SWM can't hold prvilege of other SWM surely?

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 12:20:19

Does oppression of women also suppress their violent tendencies? If the genders were equal, would men be less violent, or would women rise up to be as violent as men? Or would they meet somewhere in the middle?

PromQueenWithin Fri 21-Jun-13 12:13:30

Less sure about that; lots of violence between men in schools/prisons and that may be due to conditioning, but don't see quite how that is done to maintain their privilege...

It is done to establish / maintain their status in the pecking order, isn't it? Like your example of bullies backing off if hit (that was dh's experience too), you're showing that you're willing to use violence to protect yourself and that you can do so successfully, and so you're no longer part of the weaker ones. Thus you maintain some sort of privilege?

OneMoreChap Fri 21-Jun-13 12:10:55

scallopsrgreat
I want to live in a world without violence but without tackling the problem of male violence that is never going to happen.

Completely agree.
Let's move forward on that.

All the women in the world could stop being violent and men would still be violent because it maintains their privilege, because that is what they have been conditioned to do.

Less sure about that; lots of violence between men in schools/prisons and that may be due to conditioning, but don't see quite how that is done to maintain their privilege...

If men stopped being violent then there would just be no need for women to be violent.

Mmm. That would suggest that leads to no female on female violence, and I'm unsure that necessarily follows.

It wouldn't make sense. And that is why we have to name the problem and that is why it needs to be tackled head on.

And the steps are?

I was bullied at school. In the end, after talking to my dad, I hit back hard at the bully(ies) and was left alone. My son was bullied, I told him something similar.

Society as a whole tends towards the most powerful wins... I'm unsure of the next steps. Education helps... but will it overcome the issues of violence:

Primarily male on male, then male on female, then female on female, female on male - or whatever order the greatest good for the greatest number is...

Bonsoir Fri 21-Jun-13 11:23:44

I would have hypothesised that men are more likely to be victims of psychological than physical domestic abuse.

scallopsrgreat Fri 21-Jun-13 11:19:59

That was addressing LL's post of 10.06

scallopsrgreat Fri 21-Jun-13 11:18:48

But gender is hardly ever mentioned in the media for example. Despite overwhelming evidence that most violent crime is committed by men. It just isn't termed as that. It is all about individuals being violent. People were quick to pick up on the supposed patterns of groups of Asian men raping white girls so they are happy to pick up a racial angle (deserved or otherwise). Yet gender is off limits.

I've just had friends comments deleted last night on CiF for daring to suggest that most violent crime is committed by men regardless of victim and that maybe we should be teaching our sons not to be violent.

People don't want to know because then they will have to address the massive problem that is male violence. And you know why because it threatens male privilege. Saying Asian men rape white girls and demanding something be done about it only affects Asian men's privilege over girls. Very specific and not a coincidence that the villains awre also an oppressed group. The big white chiefs don't have to look towards themselves in that instance. They don't have to curb or lose their privilege over women. That is maintained nicely by all the other men (of whatever race) carrying on being violent to their wives, girlfriends, children, other men.

I want to live in a world without violence but without tackling the problem of male violence that is never going to happen. All the women in the world could stop being violent and men would still be violent because it maintains their privilege, because that is what they have been conditioned to do. If men stopped being violent then there would just be no need for women to be violent. It wouldn't make sense. And that is why we have to name the problem and that is why it needs to be tackled head on.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 11:17:01

Last was to Leith. Agree Prom.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 11:16:06

Male violence against women is the problem here. I know lots of people have various reasons for wanting to confuse this very simple issue though.

Women as a gender are more affected by poverty worldwide than men - so be my guest. Tackle poverty as well.

PromQueenWithin Fri 21-Jun-13 11:15:59

My opinion is that a reluctance to "name the problem" as male violence stems from men being culturally dominant. So most men, being on the whole nice chaps and not liking to think of themselves as even partially responsible for a pandemic of violence against another group, take great offence at their gender being named.

And because we are culturally programmed to give greater weight to male voices, their outrage is heeded and feminists that want the problem named are in fact the ones who are shamed by doing so.

That's just my reading of it though. There are no doubt others!

Leithlurker Fri 21-Jun-13 11:07:28

There is no "one" problem, there are many problems some of which interconnect with others, if we had to start somewhere though I would start at poverty. Poverty of attainment, as well as wealth based poverty.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:01

Name the problem, Leith.

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:38:11

I think some people just like to get it off their chest, Leith.

Leithlurker Fri 21-Jun-13 10:06:02

Shees talk about war of the sexes, are we so intent on naming the gender as the issue that we do not address how we stop it.

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 09:02:00

Aren't men responsible for the majority of just about every serious, violent crime? Assault, murder, GBH, ABH, muggings etc etc. Men also cause wars and conflicts all around the globe, and have done since records began. DV is just a part of the pattern, isn't it?

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 00:54:35

Josef fritzl, Christian Slater, Ryan O'Neil, Marvyn Gaye, Tom Sizemore, Evel Knievel.

In fact out of these 200 famous names, very few are female. I counted 3 at a glance. There will always be a number of exceptions that prove the rule, but DV is a gendered crime, by men against women.

Never mind famous faces, two absolutely non-famous women, leading ordinary lives, in the UK are murdered by their partners each week. There are no such such comparable numbers of men murdered by their partners.

newsreviews Thu 20-Jun-13 18:50:22

Tonya Harding, a two-time Olympian, not only conspired with others to physically assault her skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan. But on February 24, 2000, Harding was booked on fourth-degree Domestic Violence assault charges for punching and throwing a hubcap at her then boyfriend, Darren Silver.

Keli lane, former Olympian water polo champion, was found guilty of murdering her baby. Attacking those least able to defend themselves (children), is surely the most abhorrent form of domestic violence!

FreedomOfTheTess Thu 20-Jun-13 13:40:12

WhentheRed - I agree, male victims should access to support services, separate from those in place for women. Such services DO exist.

However, when in 2011 the Government announced a £225,000 fund (which is about half a % of its funding for DV services) for support services for male victims of DV and sexual abuse, two of the most prominent male charities (ManKind and the Men's Advice Line) received no funding.

Yet funding was provided to some DV services, which primarily support WOMEN (including a Women's Aid branch in Derbyshire), who had put bids in saying they were reaching out to male victims too. Not surprisingly, this didn't go down too well, as many question if that money was used for male victim services.

It does raise questions when these services, who focus mainly on women (and there's no problem with that) get funding, but the two main male services didn't.

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 21:53:15

Whenthered
freedom programmes are being offered to men in north west area...dont know about rest of country...

Leigg am not detracting from women at all..as a former victim i believe in equality for all..ppl regargless of gender to not sit and suffer...and if the new campaigns saves just 1 life and raises awareness we will be happy x

Leithlurker Wed 19-Jun-13 21:52:23

Ha perhaps I should have one of those and see it it gets clearer, I suspect not though as it is a difficult issue as some of the issues that you and Red point out would need to be set aside and it just be thought about in abstract terms, difficult with this subject, more difficult trying to explain what I mean through the keyboard.

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 21:43:04

That's a tricky question Leith, and a glib answer would be that I would prefer women not to form the majority of DV victims, and then they wouldn't need the power (such as it is, the power of victimhood) that comes from the fact that they are.

I think that if support for DV victims were to be provided on an absolutely equal basis (e.g. an equal number of places in specific DV shelters) then this would be a waste of resources because more places are needed for female victims.

However, I think it would be helpful if adequate provision were made for male victims and adequate acknowledgement that female on male DV happens, because that would take the wind out of the sales of whatabouttehmenz arguments. Not saying that posters on the other thread were MRA types by any means, their concerns are very different.

But, once again, men's needs are being thought of first in this scenario. Let's make sure male victims of DV are ok before we can worry about the women, otherwise lots of people will cry foul and then we will become mired in argument instead of action.

Bit rambly, had small glass of wine

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