ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Do FWR posters want a matriarchy?(205 Posts)
I think not. I think that the majority of posters on this board don't want the unfair advantage men have replaced by an unfair advantage for women. They want equality for men and women and while that equality would require men to give up some of their privilege I think that everyone, including men, would be better off as a consequence. I also do not think that most posters on this board wish to see women prevented from being SAHMs or choosing traditionally female occupations if that is what they wish to do.
I would like to understand the opinions of other posters, because I think there's a lot of "well, most posters on this board think <insert straw feminist discrediting belief here>" and I personally feel that this is unjustified.
As soon as you got onto this thread you started quibbling at BIWI about definitions of equality. That sounds to me like you saying you think you know best.
At the moment, as you must know perfectly well, all these 'same' things are not remotely the same. It is simply rubbish to suggest that is true.
I am talking about an ideal, not a reality, as you well know. Quibbling indeed.
As a further measure, I would remove an tax advantages/charitable status from institutions such as churches/religions who do not have full equality for women and gay people. If all the avenues within such organisations are not open to everybody, you should not qualify for any advantages under the law.
No, I didn't know, because you didn't say. And it is very unclear from your posts what you think.
You have a few small ideas about how to advance equality, by the sounds of it. But you think the most important thing is to take issue with feminists over the possible unfairness of maternity leave ... why? And you seem sure, against all evidence, that 'most men want equality'.
There is a pattern to your posts - you tell us you're a nice, decent bloke who wants equality for the women, but somehow, you think feminists are doing it all wrong. Doesn't seem like you're very committed to that equality now, does it?
Can you please point out my reference to maternity leave? Which post?
No thanks...equality please...although many of the posters on these boards apparently have zero interest in that.
Interesting comments on maternity leave, the concept is gendr based and arguably sexist, id really rather there was parental leave that families could divide as they wished. This would also end the disparity of risk small companies actually face in taking on female staff... that risk is predicated by only paying mat leave proper to females and it is mat leave in its current state that is continuing that situation.
Ah, sorry, getting you all confused with larry, seeing as how you were defending his posts I assumed you agreed with them.
Do you in fact disagree, then?
Yes yes yes, we all want equality. If intentions were enough then why hasn't it happened yet? Is it because "women don't want it enough"? Huh? How often have we heard that? So naive. Maybe it's all so clear cut and obvious in some people's mind because they've never had to cope with insidious and subtle discrimination and the kind that you can't even begin to complain about and some kinds that you can't even name. And maybe it's all so easy in some people's mind because they think they are oh-so-nice and if-only-there-are-more-of-me-the-world-would-be-a-better-place. And maybe these nice people are the ones with the best intentions and refuse to see that their thinking and their actions might be a result of more than their actual concious thoughts and because they want equality and if hasn't happened it's not their fault. Self-righteous superior "nice" people. It's getting boring.
Mmm. Yes, if men want equality, and acknowledge that women are not yet being treated as equal to men, it would be nice to know whether the reason for us not having it is we don't 'want it enough'. I have seen that argument advanced seriously, btw.
Or there's that 'oh, yes, I want equality, so just my good intentions are enough. I'll sit back in this armchair while you sort it out.'
Larry? Yes, I saw his stuff just now, and realised you had confused me with him. Brilliant. How have I referenced or supported him? I didn't even read him until you mentioned maternity leave. Can you please stop making stuff up to cover your mistakes?
My stance is parental leave to be split equally, or as the parents see fit. Same rights, same under the law for either gender. I'd have loved to have stayed off when mine were younger, 6 months each for me and my wife. It was never an option though, sadly.
"There is a pattern to your posts - you tell us you're a nice, decent bloke who wants equality for the women, but somehow, you think feminists are doing it all wrong."
with respect that's no worse than your own attacks on this poster...If you could confine yourself to engaging with the arguments given rather than trying to attack the poster on the basis of your assumptions about his style and gender you'd be making a more convincing case.
slug You have the best links.
Somehow I'm reminded of this too. Not sure why. But you know, it's this mysterious female brain thing that links irrelevant things. Anyway I'm taking the advice of this link and leaving. Bye!
I am female and a feminist AND I agree with you on the parental leave you have suggested as it also prevents the reasons for discrimination given by smaller busineses when considering taking on female staff as i stated above.
namechange, I apologised, you might have the grace to accept. I confused you because of how you responded to my posts, because you sound as if you both agree. If you don't, fine, that's fair enough - but tell me so, don't expect me to read your mind.
Do you think that I'm wrong men are saying 'we get to define what equality is and we reject feminists' definitions'? Do you think larry is wrong about equality? Or are you just arguing for the sake of it?
mungo - I don't give a flying fuck about his writing style, and don't know why you think I do. I think there is a pattern to the way he (and for that matter larry) posts. They like to tell us they are for equality, but they think we feminists are doing it all wrong. So it's clearly a very special kind of equality they think they're supporting - the kind that doesn't involve women being equal to men, in my impressions of it.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I agree, stick. Especially about equality and equal opportunities being different things.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
All the issues around maternity leave are highly open to interpretation, for instance. Only women can give birth and breastfeed. Is it "fair" to 100% compensate for this or is it "fair" to say time at work counts and, if you have to take time off for whatever reason, you have missed valuable experience and it should be taken into account.
It is 'fair' to allow either parent to take parental leave regardless of gender, up to the legal limit. If you miss stuff, it is up to you to catch up, but jobs vary almost infinitely, so in some industries this is a non-issue. I work in IT. Nobody changes the way computers work fundamentally in 12 months, so for in my industry it is not a valid point. Besides, bringing up kids is not a trivial thing, and not easy. Nobody takes the decision to do it lightly. Companies need to do more to support regardless of gender. Plus, as mungo said, it will not allow companies to discriminate as easily.
Is it "fair" to make a woman friendly (i.e flexible) workplace or is it "fair" to say that everyone should be treated identically and a workplace should be maximised for output?
See above. Parent friendly, not woman friendly. 'Maximising for output' is not flogging people to death. Maximising output comes from happy, valued employees. Family life contributes massively to this. It is greedy businesses that would have us believe otherwise.
LRD I havent been here long but your swearing isn't terribly adult and your accussation against him which attempt to discredit his style of posting (based on your perception) looks a lot like an un-grounded personal attack. I find nothing in his comments on maternity leave that state feminists are 'doing it wrong' you have already attributed statements to him which were false, thats 'misleading' and appears to break the guidelines. Incidentally you are not a representative of 'feminists' nor are you entitled to speak on their behalf as a group. He disagrees with you....not all females who are feminists as you hav repeatedly implied. He is clearly asking for equality in this case, if you disagree please state why you don't think parental leave is a better option and why you continue to support increased maternity benefits for one gender over another. I thought this board was an area for reasoned discussion not an area for you to try and insinuate other people are anti-feminist and discredit them in that manner because you lack a rational discursive style.
I would still like to know where I supported Larry. I am lost on that one.
'Matriarchy' as a concept is entirely patriarchal.
It is based on patriarchal ideas of a gender binary hierarchy and the social constructs of submission and domination.
These are all things that feminism wants gone, so the entire notion of a 'matriarchy' is utterly redundant in feminist analysis.
That is all too easy.
How many women are comfortable having a discussion with their husbands where their husbands assume that they have an equal right to maternity leave to them? Really? Not theoretically. And what is the workround for breast feeding in a truly equal society? Can men demand their wives/partners make expressed milk available to them in the same way a wheelchair user can demand a lift be installed?
I have seen several threads where women are disgusted that men have assumed that they are going to be the SAHP.
Also, companies struggle to deal with maternity leave as is. Can you imagine every employee taking 6 months parental leave?
Larry, i think hes suggesting that parental leave would be split as the parents chose not that each parent would get the entire allowance! That's no more complex than the current system and consumes no more resources from the employer.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.