So in the wake of a massive public spotlight on rape, the priority apparently is to protect the reputations of the tiny % of men falsely accused of rape

(340 Posts)
FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 00:18:58

FFS FFS FFS

Is it very cynical of me to think that this new demand to enable anonymity for men accused of rape (most of whom are guilty, but get off anyway) is a psychological need to re-establish what is most important to these woman-haters?

Stop talking about the mountain of rape victims who never get justice and FGS start talking about the anthill of men who get falsely accused.

Enough of Steubenville, Delhi, Frances Andrade, Jimmy Savile's victims, the 1 in 4 women who are raped or sexually assaulted.

Let's get back to talking about the really important issues - the miniscule number of men who will be falsely accused of rape or who will be the victim of mistaken identity. Fools, don't you know they're more important than all those rape vicitms? That that's a much bigger issue? So what 25% of women are subjected to rape or sexual assault? So what if 85-90% of rape victims don't report? So what that of those who do, only 6% get a guilty verdict even though only between 2-6% are lying or mistaken? Let's get some perspective on this - men matter more than women, stop imagining they don't.

Fuming but off to bed.

Zippy1111 Sun 17-Feb-13 01:26:02

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AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 07:46:42

Fastidia it is all about focusing on men and their "issues" again, rather than their appalling and violent behaviour. It is avoiding naming the problem, male violence and turning it round to blaming women, again. The patriarchy are excellent at moving the focus of attention away from men's behaviour.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 08:09:03

And it is about eroding women's rights. Just in case women got the idea that men give them back their rights out of the goodness of their heart and we don't have to continually fight to maintain the status quo.

Basically they want to continue using violence against us but without us knowing who they are. And if they get this it won't stop there. They'll want anonymity for DV cases, child rape and paedophilia etc etc.

sausagesandwich34 Sun 17-Feb-13 08:19:36

In this country it's innocent until proven guilty

Unfortunately many people in this country see an accusation as guilt and will persecute that person -we all know hate mobs exist and it's not only the accused that suffer -its their family too

And yes false accusations take place -that for me is a bigger issue as to why people don't report

I fully understand that the victim is suffering but as a large proportion of victims know their attacker doesn't the public flogging also out the victim? Bang goes their right for anonymity!

chibi Sun 17-Feb-13 08:24:36

i think it is a fundamental lack of, or inability to empathise i think for most men (i want to believe that it is only a small % who are trying to reposition the issue as a poor old men one)

they can see themselves accused by someone, but not victimised by someone

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 08:50:52

I agree chibi. Despite the fact that they are far more likely to be victims of rape than ever accused of it (unless of course they are rapists! Then one or two accusations may be flung their way if they are "unlucky" enough to rape a woman who reports it).

I also think that there is an inherent belief that women lie. Again, despite the fact that it is the rapists doing the lying. Over and over again. All the time.

AThingInYourLife Sun 17-Feb-13 08:56:38

But the only reason rape victims can't believed is because of all the ones who "cry rape" against an innocent man.

These women are the problem.

Not men.

Oh no.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 09:42:55

Why aren't there calls for men who are accused of burglary, or fraud to get anonymity then?

Any accusation of any crime will be pretty disastrous for a man.

It is simply untrue to say that an untrue rape allegation is more disastrous for a man than any other type of untrue allegation of a crime.

Most people believe a man who has been accused of rape, who tells them that he's not guilty and that it was a big misunderstanding or the woman is malicious. They are far more ready to believe that a man accused of rape is innocent, than that a man accused of most other crimes are innocent. There is not a great big perception that most people accusing other people of burglary are liars the way there is about women who accuse men of rape, even though people who report burglary are statistically just as likely to be lying.

No, it comes down to the idea that women are the weaker vessel, unable to be trusted, morally incompetent and prone to lying. That is where this rape myth comes from.

I knew the rape apologists would be out in force on this thread.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 09:46:06

Zippy that was a rhetorical thing btw, urging us all to talk about false allegations.

But thanks for demonstrating the usual eagerness of rape apologists to make sure the debate always centres round the tiny proportion of false allegations, rather than the actual major problem of rape.

You can always be relied upon can't you?

Let's see how many other posters come up with the crap about false allegations being the real problem shall we.

Sausagesandwich, do you think all people accused of all crimes should get anonymity?

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 11:20:32

Why don't you, just for once, discuss the women who falsely report rape? Because if these individuals didn't falsely report, then it would'nt be an issue would it?

Isn't that an avenue you should be heading down? Because, I'm sorry, but the hideous attacks that men are subjected to (as Zippy illustrated) are more of a concern, frankly. It's very telling that not one person has expressed even the tiniest hint of sadness at the horrible death that an innocent man suffered.

Very, very poor. And a very big reason why feminists struggle to engage with the wider world.

kim147 Sun 17-Feb-13 11:33:18

How many false accusations are there compared to real reports? A massive difference. It's awful that someone is attacked and villified - mud sticks even though they are innocent. It says a lot about our society about how people are treated before the actual trial.

But why should people accused of rape be given anonymity? Should alleged child abusers? Murderers? I know that if it helps encourage other victims to come out if they have seen someone accused in the media - that can only be a good thing.

I think the potential good outweighs the potential harm. People who have been found innocent or who have not come to trial yet should not be subject to attack - but I bet that happens to people who are alleged to have done other crimes as well.

But you want to focus and talk about the false accusations?

Viviennemary Sun 17-Feb-13 11:38:50

Well I'm afraid I do agree with the identities of men falsely accused of rape being protected. And whose fault is it that men are falsely accused of rape. Why no other person than the women who are accusing them. They are the ones you should blame. Not the system or the men in question.

^ In this country it's innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately many people in this country see an accusation as guilt and will persecute that person -we all know hate mobs exist and it's not only the accused that suffer -its their family too^

I agree with this. I think that people (women as well as men) who are accused of sexual crimes should have their anonymity protected at least until charges are brought. These crimes are perceived as more heinous than burglary or mugging and people tend to react far more strongly to accusations.

Unfortunately of course anonymity would prevent other victims coming forward. So I don't really know where I stand on this (that was a waste of a post wasn't it? hmm).

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 11:42:16

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Viviennemary Sun 17-Feb-13 11:49:20

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chibi Sun 17-Feb-13 11:50:23

yes, it is terrible that a man died.

it is also terrible that many people who are raped never see charges brought against their attackers, let alone convictions

it is also good that it is possible for people to come forward and tell their stories when an accused's name is made public - i am thinking particularly of john worboys,but he is certainly not the only one

it is possible for the above statements to be true simultaneously without canceling each other out i reckon

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 11:51:35

"Why don't you, just for once, discuss the women who falsely report rape? Because if these individuals didn't falsely report, then it would'nt be an issue would it?"

Because it's not "just for once" is it?

It's all that's ever discussed around rape.

It absolutely dominates the public discourse on rape.

And yet it is an absolutely tiny problem in comparison to the very real problem of 25% of all women being subjected to sexual assaults.

And by saying that it is false allegations that are stopping women from reporting, you are repeating a rape myth, which is against Mumsnet rules.

It is not false allegations, it is the disproportionate attention paid to them in the public discourse around rape.

Women don't come forward because they know they won't be believed. Not because a tiny minority of people lie, but because the public discourse is determined to keep that tiny minority as a huge bogey man in the public consciousness.

A tiny minority of people lie about being burgled, being mugged, being the victims of all sorts of crime.

But the public discourse around those crimes, is not dominated by that tiny minority.

The reason rape is, is because of sheer misogyny - the idea that women are liars and men never lie about rape.

It is a rape myth and those of you coming on here to repeat it, are repeating rape myths.

You already have a 1 in 4 chance of being sexually assaulted up to and including rape, if you are a woman. Those of you who are men, the females in your life who you love, have that 1 in 4 chance. Every time you repeat a rape myth, you are contributing to the culture which makes it easy for men to rape women and so you make your female loved-one's life (or your own) that little bit less safe from sexual attack.

Well done you.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 11:52:12

The thing that is preventing women coming forward is the fact that men lie about rape. They know the man who raped them will lie and he will be believed. That and victim blaming.

chibi Sun 17-Feb-13 11:53:09

there is a fundamental lack of understanding here of how policing works- do posters think you can just pootle on down to the police station, announce that someone has raped you, and that's it, they are arrested?

i would be very surprised to hear if this were actually the case

Laradaclara Sun 17-Feb-13 11:53:26

I would imagine people accused of offences against children are more subject to attack than other crimes.
I think the question of how to encourage more women to report rape and how to secure more convictions is a difficult one. I certainly know of one person who did not want to report because although their anonymity would be protected, it would be obvious who they were once news got out around friends that this person had been arrested. It would also have reached the papers and the idea of people asking about it and being associated with it for years to come was too much to bear. Perhaps anonymity for the rapist would have actually helped.

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 11:53:41

Forgot to say:

'I think the potential good outweighs the potential harm.'

That's very easy for you to say Kim. I very much doubt that if you were ever falsely accused you would take it on the chin for the greater good.

CoalDustWoman Sun 17-Feb-13 11:55:12

The trial linked to earlier hasn't finished, has it?

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 11:57:05

Those who are horrified about the man who was murdered are missing the point:

He was murdered because of male violence.

It wasn't women who murdered him - it was other men.

Start addressing the problem of male violence and you start addressing the problem of vigilantism.

For that matter, start giving women justice for rape and yobbos like this won't feel that the only way to get justice, is by going in for horrific violence in the first place.

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 11:57:40

'And by saying that it is false allegations that are stopping women from reporting, you are repeating a rape myth, which is against Mumsnet rules.'

I'm sorry, but wtf? How the hell do you know it's a myth? Have you actually spoken to these women? All of them? Not one said that?

This is just ridiculous.

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