a question for the men here

(1000 Posts)
Mitchy1nge Tue 29-Jan-13 01:01:05

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

AbigailAdams Mon 04-Feb-13 10:29:43

Or perhaps you don't actually want to celebrate differences. Just those differences that suit you?

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:29:24

Celebrating diversity is always good.

Hullygully Mon 04-Feb-13 10:28:01

the quality and content of answers are of course entirely irrelevant

but good to see penile solidarity

my questions were to all males on the thread, not the one I'm least interested in

we all know at enormous and meaningless length what he thinks

AbigailAdams Mon 04-Feb-13 10:27:26

I don't know why you think its boring Larry. Removing social constructs would celebrate diversity not restrict it like the patriarchy currently does.

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 10:24:59

Totally agree. But equality does not equal identicality. I think it is important to appreciate (and enjoy differences) between the sexes within an equal world. I think the idea that men and women are merely social constructs is a/wrong and b/boring. However, that probably, in itself, disqualifies me from here. smile

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:21:47

One of the key things is the education of girls - and of boys to see women as equals. That was a key factor in the Russian revolution.

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:18:41

I can identify with your first sentence. I hope I'm raising mine to be well equipped to work towards their own better world.

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 10:16:44

Herewego,

I prefer to spend my energy helping my two survive (and prosper) in this one. However I do have boys and this section has opened my eyes to some of the problems girls face (and some I totally don't think they do). I was at a children's party yesterday and saw all the boys in nice comfy clothes and some 2-4 year old girls wearing garments where it was really tough to run and play. Maybe if I had girls I would feel differently, certainly wouldn't dress them like that...or buy them toys which you can't really "play" with.

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:15:37

I think Daddelion has a good point, that men were drawn in by seeing "a question for the men here" in Active Convos. It wasn't immediately apparent that it was a rhetorical question.

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:12:59

What I will say is that I refuse to give up, and accept that what we've got is the best we can get. That would be...very sad. If you've got dc, you want a better world for them.

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 10:11:58

Daddelion,

Agreed, I rarely post in this section and normally drawn in by finding an interesting subject before I realise "where" it is. After this thread closes, I will be careful to avoid in future.

Although men are said to be welcomed, they are only welcomed as tame pets. I will continue to read and learn, though.

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:10:31

Think I can cover it in the posts remaining, Larry? grin

Daddelion Mon 04-Feb-13 10:09:38

Ok I won't comment on your posts.

Oldqueen- The thread is called 'a question for the men here' should men not post?

I must admit I don't usually venture into FWR it never ends well.
And I'm sure most (all) of the posters will be pleased to hear I won't be making a habit of it.

kim147 Mon 04-Feb-13 10:09:38

Just wondering who's going to get the last word in on this debate grin

<unhelpful contribution>

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 10:08:47

Here,

Yes, but one borne of both having lived through a few economic cycles and a fair amount of reading. I am a little defeatist on that score.

What system do you think would realistically work and deliver a better outcome across the board?

herewegoloubylou Mon 04-Feb-13 10:06:22

Larrygrylls: "As far as I can see, human nature is flawed and the current capitalism/socialism mix of some flavour is the best system that we can realistically hope for." That is a very defeatist view, IMO, Larry.

Respect to Pan for consistently and courteously engaging, and trawling through 980 posts to find questions put by Hully which he had hitherto "failed" to provide an answer to. Questions now duly answered.

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 10:03:30

OQ,

Surely this thread, which invited men on ("a question for the MEN"), is slightly different to others? Not sure why you have come to this thread and then complain about being interrupted by men (who are here by invitation!).

And, equally, why do you "have to" pay attention to the men. The advantage of the internet over a whining toddler is you only need to skim the poster's name to realise the sex and then ignore, if that is what you choose to do. As someone with two under four, that is a lot harder to do with real toddlers...

oldqueencrepey Mon 04-Feb-13 09:59:55

As a newcomer to the FWR threads I feel my head spinning as I try to read and engage with the conversation on here... maybe because I am struck by things that over time I would no longer "see", or, quite possibly, because I "don't get it". Or perhaps I am noticing something that has been endlessly talked about on here (and if so apologies).
What I am struck by is how there are women on here attempting to have interesting debate and dialogue about relevant and interesting things, who then constantly either have to interrupt what they are doing to pay attention to men or are interrupted and then have to pointedly ignore men. It reminds me of a rather harassed mother with a toddler holding onto her legs while she tries to take a work call, or cook the supper, "Mummy, Mummy, Mummy..", "But I want it now not that one the other one..". As in real life it is exhausting and makes the job in hand a lot more difficult.
I will persevere!

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 09:57:03

Beachcomber,

Although I can absolutely understand what you are saying, surely absolute outcomes are more important than relative outcomes. Under USSR communism there was great sexual equality but, on the other hand, is equality where everyone (except for the elite) has to join a queue for a loaf of bread really worth fighting for?

I am not sure many do unpaid work (in the sense that most have some disposable income) but certainly household work and child rearing is, in a sense, often underpaid. But what is the solution to this other than education and raising awareness? Some would say that everyone should do paid work and child rearing should be outsourced to (mainly non professional) "professionals". I dislike that model as I feel it is not good for children. However, that is a very personal view and I appreciate it is not necessarily popular. Ultimately, as a parent, though, one has to make individual choices as long as one does not make them hypocritically and appreciates that it personal and not a judgment of others and their choices.

Someone always seems to get exploited under any system but it may be a different someone.

Beachcomber Mon 04-Feb-13 09:53:12

Whatever Daddelion.

Don't bother. I don't think I'm interested in what you have to say after the nag comment.

Daddelion Mon 04-Feb-13 09:48:30

In a 978 post thread sometimes things get lost.

Particularly when I've had my intelligence questioned to the level that i can't run a microwave.

I've said I'll read it, and I will.
I can't see a link for the UK stats though.

And I know woman don't nag but you're starting to sound like my mum!!

Beachcomber Mon 04-Feb-13 09:45:50

larry, I think I'm more interested in the fact that certain populations are exploited by patriarchal capitalism, and examining the politics therein, than simply accepting that someone has to exploited by capitalism. Unpaid work being the big elephant in the room.

Beachcomber Mon 04-Feb-13 09:40:06

Daddelion - thanks for the apology. I'm not looking for an apology though - I would just rather that you acknowledged replies to you and perhaps addressed them.

Beachcomber Mon 04-Feb-13 09:36:30

Agree with you there Mini (about capitalism and inequality). I'm not back really. I wanted to post about transgenderism and then got sucked into a couple of threads. I don't think I want to get back into posting here regularly - thanks though smile

larrygrylls Mon 04-Feb-13 09:22:32

Mini,

Maybe, but most modern systems are a balance between socialism, in that income is redistributed through tax, and capitalism, where people are incentivised to get wealthy through their own efforts. As far as I can see (in my 30 year adult lifetime) we tend to swing from more socialistic and more capitalistic, almost in a sine wave. Each time we get closer to pure capitalism, people resent the wealthy and elect a more left wing government. Each time gvt becomes too redistributive, people resent their tax burden and where it is going.

Some of the recent scandals are of a different nature and point towards flaws in capitalism. OTOH, every time government controls too much of the national money they use that money to enrich themselves and their cronies. USSR was an extreme examples with only the central committee having access to hard currency shops while denying the citizenry all but essentials.

As far as I can see, human nature is flawed and the current capitalism/socialism mix of some flavour is the best system that we can realistically hope for.

This thread is not accepting new messages.