a question for the men here

(1000 Posts)
Mitchy1nge Tue 29-Jan-13 01:01:05

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 13:55:03

Oh I know LineRunner. How dare I contradict? I am just feeling a bit uppity today grin

LineRunner Wed 30-Jan-13 14:01:23

My academic discipline went through a phase of being interested in feminism, and that was just it, a phase. It's as though it 'did' feminism and it was women doing it and that was nice and now we've done that.

There's still a lot of oppression of thought for women. In fact being told that feminist theory in the disciipline is for women is pretty oppressive.

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 14:05:19

"In fact being told that feminist theory in the disciipline is for women is pretty oppressive." Sorry LineRunner, I'm not getting what you mean by that?

Susan2kids Wed 30-Jan-13 14:05:22

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LineRunner Wed 30-Jan-13 14:14:58

Abigail, I mean that in my academic discipline, there is still a general feeling that feminist theory is just for women.

NormaStanleyFletcher Wed 30-Jan-13 14:15:22

Which posters have said Abigail is a troll? Where? Im pretty sure that's against mnhq rules.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 30-Jan-13 14:15:57

SweetLilyTea

I'm embarrassed to name names, but I like posters like NicholasTeakozy. He's clearly not here to antagonise and doesn't tell feminists how to think, or what to feel. Just joins in discussions in a really genuine way.

blush Thank you for saying that and for recognising that I don't have an agenda, other than equality.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Wed 30-Jan-13 14:23:50

Actually, some men with nice stable families are also rapists.

And quite a lot of the families that people are in or have left on MN are not "nice and stable"

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Wed 30-Jan-13 14:28:59

The majority of men don't rape - agreed
So if they read "stop raping" they will think "we don't" - fair enough
And you get nowhere because you wouldn't discuss the issue further - nope, lost me there.

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 14:39:23

Please read what I wrote Susan. I wasn't defending the definition of feminism, merely explaining what I meant by the relationship between freedom of oppression and equality - which you questioned. I also explained that it wasn't my definition because for some reason you think it is.

"I think you've just proved my point you just accused men of raping, something the majority of men don't do." Men do rape. It is one of the tools they use to oppress women. I never said all men rape. But it is something that only men do (at least in the UK). Do I really need to explain why they should just stop raping us without any discussion? Perhaps because it is wrong. What is there to discuss about rape, really? Do we need negotiate terms and conditions under which men won't rape us? Anyway, Andrea Dworkin says it much better than me though. Perhaps read some of her works if you really are interested.

I'll repeat. Men need to listen. That is what they primarily need to do within feminism. Telling us what and how things should be done and insisting on being involved in "discussions" isn't on. Asking questions to gain understanding - fine. Dismissing the experiences of women or arguing against those experiences - not so fine. Other really good things they could do is point out sexism and misogyny when they see it. They could also name and analyse men's misogynistic behaviour for what it is. For example Robert Jenson and Lundy Bancroft do this very well. So I think you are right, men need to get involved in feminism much more but probably not in the same ways you think. Tackling other men's behaviour is what they really need to be getting on with.

"Im still incidentally waiting for your explanation of why men cant be feminists" I actually never said they couldn't. That was your extrapolation. However, I believe that men can be feminist supporters (as per Robert Jenson and Lundy Bancroft) but whilst men are oppressing us they can't be feminists per se. However, that isn't why I highlighted that sentence of yours. It was the way you stated it as if it were fact, when it wasn't.

"Im going to ask you one more time to read before I dismiss you as the troll ive already been told by multiple posters you are."; "Ive checked, thats your usual tactic..." OK that is more than a little sinister. Though the latter statement is true, I don't normally engage too heavily with anti-feminists. Takes up too much time and energy and I'll never change their minds. So I'll leave it there now with you. If you really are interested in feminism, read some of the threads. There are some very intelligent and eloquent women on here. Also I think that you have misread Greer somewhere down the line.

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 14:42:37

Thanks LineRunner - that's what I thought you meant. Yes teaching men about feminism would be good.

Susan2kids Wed 30-Jan-13 15:07:10

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Susan2kids Wed 30-Jan-13 15:08:34

NicholasTeaKozy...... its a shame that Abigail doesnt think you have any right to even post your views here. I also welcome them.

PromQueenWithin Wed 30-Jan-13 15:17:05

Susan, I'm also an academic and I must say that you don't express yourself like one.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Jan-13 15:23:22

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AnyFucker Wed 30-Jan-13 15:26:03

You are dominating this thread right enough though, so a pat on the back for that smile

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 15:26:07

"Why dont you think men should be allowed to discuss feminisn?" I never said that.

Hullygully Wed 30-Jan-13 15:28:17

Miss Greer?

Pore ol Germaine

Hullygully Wed 30-Jan-13 15:29:17

Susan, are you trying to say that we all (men and women) need to talk to each other and work together to achieve equality?

NicholasTeakozy Wed 30-Jan-13 15:29:46

Susan, I've not seen any post on this thread that states I should not post here, so your post is both confusing and inaccurate.

My daughters and their mother all call me a feminist. I don't, because I don't believe a man can be a feminist. I'm an egalitarian, I'm interested in feminism and want to learn more.

RM76 Wed 30-Jan-13 15:34:27

The Manboobz website is an excellent example of women and men meeting, talking, and doing something that actually helps combat sexism. The difference? It is not full of Misogyny deniers intent on telling us women to behave.
I recommend it, but the stuff they deal with (MRA, Reddit etc) does take a strong stomach, although I'm sure a lot of the people (men and women) who say feminists are making a fuss over nothing will actually enjoy it for the very reason I find it nauseating.
www.Manboobz.com/

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Wed 30-Jan-13 15:45:47

Surely it would be Ms Greer, Hully.

Thanks for that link RM.

Susan, do you understand what a troll actually is?

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 15:52:58

Yes thanks for the link RM76. Men combatting sexism.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 30-Jan-13 15:56:05

Susan2kids You do realise troll hunting isn't allowed on these boards? FWIW, Abigail is not a troll, she simply disagrees with you.

And Miss Greer - really?

Susan2kids Wed 30-Jan-13 16:14:24

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