Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.(346 Posts)
Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.
I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.
In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.
You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.
FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:16
Very good post. I totally agree.
Has someone already asked you if you are Joanna Lumley, OP? Can't be arsed to read the whole thread. Tanya Gould's reply to Joanna Lumley was pretty good I thought.
Dummad has no point to make. Women aren't going to be freed from oppression and gain equality because they dress modestly. We had centuries of us dressing modestly that didn't seem to make much difference. Nor are we going to gain equality by wearing less because this has nothing to do with women's behaviour and everything to do with men's.
The patriarchy are very good at pitting woman against woman, it seems. Making women police other women.
Why bother attempting any degree of political and structural analysis, when it's so much easier and more fun just to blame the women?
I just wonder though, why do we all strut about preening and showing off our pretty feathers. I would prefer someone want to approach me because I look interesting....not because I look like some plasticised princess. Who exactly benefits from pressuring women to look like plasticised dolls?
Oh FFS, back to the same old slut-shaming misogyny that's always spoiled radfem thinking. It's perfectly possible to campaign against domestic violence and for equal pay and reproductive rights during the week, and to want to go out on a Saturday night in deliberately sexy clothes and have a laugh and a pose with your mates. For women who are not model-thin or 'conventionally pretty', it's actually quite liberating to run around with a bit of flesh on display, with friends, having fun. And girls dressed up in groups are usually looking out for each other, sharing the joke, feeling safe in a crowd. You don't have to cover yourself up to be a feminist, or to show your 'intelligence'. Don't forget that a lot of the people who want women to cover themselves up are not feminist at all.
If that's Exeter Dromedary, all the students wear just underwear.
Dummad's posts ( and others) read remarkably like posts made by the MRA trolls and misogynists who sometimes frequent ths site.
It is very much a fashion "uniform" these days, there is a similar one for young men - exceedingly tight t-shirts and skinny, arse skimming jeans with Vans or Converse and a plaid shirt, the only thing that saddens me is that everyone looks the same, no individuality any more.
If anything, young womens' fashion is quite granny-like at the moment, all floaty chiffon blouses and shiny/sparkly stuff, a lot of them look like a grandma at a wedding - hardly "prostitute" like.
<<Saturday night in deliberately sexy clothes and have a laugh and a pose with your mates>>
what's with the posing?
I don't think there's any 'rad' in this thread SGB. Or indeed any feminism.
"Oh FFS, back to the same old slut-shaming misogyny that's always spoiled radfem thinking"
What a load of bollocks SGB. The OP barely seems to be a feminist let alone a radfem. Radical feminists don't "slut-shame" they put the blame firmly where it should be - at the feet of men.
Did their father's tell them what to wear?
Mini strutting about and preening feathers for BOTH sexes is a practice as old as time itself.
How can you tell someone looks interesting from looking at them? Some people dress in a certain way so you think they look really cool but in fact they are a bam. Likewise some people fade into the background but when you get to know them, they're great.
It is fun. It is fun to get dressed up, get a lot of admiring looks from people, dance...people like to have fun! You're not going to change that.
I sometimes struggle with this. My daughters and sons are presumably of the same age as who dummad saw.
And the women take far more effort and time on their appearance, than the men.
Now, presumably, they both want to attract the other.
But women make an effort, men, not so much.
Why are the women trying harder than the men?
Because women judge other women harsher than women judge men?
it is narrowing though amillion. men are increasingly spending more time on their appearance.
JustAHolyFool I agree, something all generations have engaged in.
I suppose for me though, I prefer non-conformists. You can usually tell by looking who might be more interesting to talk to. Although having said that one of my very best friends, recently single is doing the "Essex" look now. She is dismayed to find that the attitude is one of indifference unless sex is on offer.
Really, Mini? I don't think you can tell at all. I find a lot of people who dress in a supposed cool/don't care way deeply dull, grating and quite often judgemental about people (usually women) who dress up.
My two best friends could not be more different in how they dress: one is very glamourous, sparkly, big hair etc, the other is rarely out of hiking boots and ill-fitting jumpers. Both equally intelligent, lovely and interesting.
OP,I would say "nul points" but at 92 messages when you appear only to have arrived on mumsnet for the first time today, I'd say it was actually a fairly successful piece of coat-trailing. It's still nul points for content though, 'cos it reads like something thrown out by one of the "random daily mail article generator" websites you can find online.
Meantime, anyone want to talk about what they had for lunch?
I think the thing that I picked up on from the OP, was the fact that there was little interaction btw the men and women. When I was younger we just hung out in a big group of men and women. We talked, laughed, went to the pub, skating, cinema, beach, parties, clubs as a group. Some were paired up at different times but first their was friendship and fun. From what Op says and from SGB post, it's all about feather waving and displays. In men and women do not actually socialise together just because they like each other's company then that I think leads to a separation where women are only seen as something to drag home at the end of a night out for sex.
My friend is finding that all the men want is casual hook ups. They can't even be bothered to ask her anything beyond "you up for it then"
Is that a thing, Mini? I don't think men and women socialise less together than they used to and how can we possibly prove it.
It sounds to me like your friend is going to the wrong type of place. Go to a place with £1 vodka red bull and pounding RnB and yes, that's what you'll get, from men AND women. Go to a jazz club or a thoughtful indie person's night and you will find people who are a bit more you know...whatever.
<<Go to a jazz club or a thoughtful indie person's night and you will find people who are a bit more you know...whatever>>
and I suspect the clothing choice is different too?
hi lurcio, I had onion bhajees (bhajis? How do you spell it?) for lunch. I almost choked on one laughing at 'little fuck toys' but then I got to the end and wasn't sure if the thread was a spoof or not .
What did you have?
I wouldn't know on the interaction with men and women.
I'm 30, and wore short skirts and high heels as a teenager, and early 20s. It wasn't all that long ago. However I think young women today are dressing more provocatively, and I don't find it attractive. They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out. I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both.
I'm not saying we should judge them for what they wear, or that they are unintelligent, I just wish 'demure' would come back in fashion, a la Audrey Hepburn.
I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described.
I'm trying to get my head around how it is okay, preferable even, to want to spend time with non-conformist people, to the extent that people on here are having to speculate on the intentions and lives of women who dress in a conventionally 'sexy' style because you don't seem to know any of them. It isn't as if there are hardly any of them and it is just coincidence they're outside of who you personally know. Yet it is not okay for some women and men to want to socialise with their own gender?
Men and women spend time together all the time in lots of different situations; if they want to go out to clubs or pubs in separate groups, it doesn't mean they don't interact at all. If I was going out with my SIL and friends in an all woman group to a club, it doesn't mean we won't meet up with my brother and male family members earlier or later, or that we don't go out together to other venues or events altogether at other times.
again mini it depends where you go. in the bar i go to most regularly, it is completely mixed. there is no division at all of the sexes. but, and i think this is important, it is a 'regulars' sort of place where everyone alread knows pretty much everyone who walks through the door and it isn't odd to arrive with a group of friends and spend the rest of the evening circling the place catching up with everyone else in there because you know them all aswell. in other bars in the town i might know 3/4 people who walk through the door in a whole night and so i'm not going to be seen mixing with lots of different people as i dont know them. as i said, i dont go out to pull, i go out to have a drink and a laugh with friends with a bit of good music in the background. and i cant think of a time ever (apart from a hen night) when i went out in just a group of girls. it has always been a mixed group.
not everyone that goes out, goes out to pull, not everyone who goes out is straight and not everyone who goes out is single (and so looking to attract a partner)
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