Is it possible that we are second best?(195 Posts)
Is it conceivable that the reason women are STILL struggling for equal recognition for their achievements, equal pay, equal respect etc etc is that we are just not as good at a lot of things as men are??
This is a pretty horrifying thought that´s been niggling at the back of my mind for a little while and I REALLY want you lot to convince me otherwise!!
Here´s the deal: I´ve ALWAYS had feminist leanings, stood up for myself, been OUTRAGED whenever anyone has suggested I am in any way inferior or less able to do something based on gender. I was the lone voice at my rather conservative university questioning the status quo, whilst my very intelligent female colleagues (academically, at any rate) would prepare sandwiches for their boyfriends on a Saturday night so they´d have something to stave off the munchies when they staggered back from their drunken boys´nights out. eyeroll
BUT........lately I´m thinking that equality isn´t that straight forward and most of the time it seems we females are out to self-sabotage! Look at all these ridiculous sex-kitten role models that so many girls aspire to be like- one after the other of these female pop stars sells out her integrity and talent to become over-sexed and under-dressed. "Rah rah...girl-power"...my ass! (or rather, HER barely-covered ass!) Their one and only aim seems to be to lay it all out there for men to "come and get it". (Oh gawd...I sound like some prudish Mother Grundy...haha...but SERIOUSLY...can somebody please shut Rihanna and her gurlfriends up??!!)
Yes women are safer drivers as in they have fewer accidents, but my God, I´ve seen some cringey moments with women who just cannot for the love of all things holy park their OWN cars.
And in the work place....we definitely lack the confidence that men have. (I include myself here) I´m in the medical field and I have to be honest....sometimes feminine self-doubt is not at all helpful when it comes to the big decisions. Men are still the top surgeons and it isn´t lack of opportunity as I see it....it´s because they believe in themselves and are prepared to take chances.
And yes, you might say it´s down to conditioning, blah blah...but I think it´s fundamentally testosterone that gives them the edge in so many ways. No matter how much we like to think otherwise, we are sabotaged by our hormones! They make us focus on having babies, being submissive, under-confident and lacking in ambition in our otherwise most productive years.
I´m all ears to hear as many opinions as possible on this!
Yes... 'slightly prefer' on the less undesirable of each pair.
I thought they were all repulsive smallclanger.
We must be deviant.
Thank you so much all you clever and interesting peeps. I shall go and read those books (don´t hold your collective breath as it could take me a while yet) and then come back and tell you what I´ve discovered and we can have a good old discussion - in friendly fashion, mind you, over a mug of hot choccie/vino/vodka and red bull/pangalactic gargleblaster/*fill in tipple of choice here*
I got 50% on that thing too - I scored 19/20 on the angled-line task, and got all of my rotated shapes right, although I was too slow to do them all.
I had difficulties with the "attractive face" task because I didn't find any of them particularly attractive.
'Tis true. Though I think I do often cross the line from confident to arrogant, I'm afraid. Often when I have no to reason to!!
Women are arrogant. Men are confident.
Uptoapoint - me too! I suck at empathy and cleaning. I have ambition and am good at everything but I usually get shot down as arrogant. How very dare they!?!
"And while we're at it why do the "innate differencers" have this idea that if you're good at one thing you can't be good at another?"
Exactly. I am good at everything. Apart from cleaning. And empathy. And "ambition" (ie trying to get promoted etc but pretty ambitious when it comes to getting what I want for myself). And peeing standing up. (Bows to AnnieLobeseder ). And no doubt all kinds of things that don't matter. And I'm modest.
Same god but without the whole eternal damnation or heaven stick to beat you with! And belief in god is optional. I love Judaism!
Ah, no bitterness, please. We Annies have to stick together. We rock.
Hmm, I was brought up Church of England, but I feel a conversion coming on. I have heard various rabbis on the Today programme and they normally talk a whole load of sense. It's supposed to be the same God anyway.
And what is this nonsense about me saying things better? I'll often go back to a thread I'm on, see someone saying "I agree with Annie" and feel all smug until I see you've been on after me and they're agreeing with you! [tries not to be bitter]
My entire synagogue is wonderfully matriarchal, from rabbi to warden to chairperson to head teacher. The environment is so nurturing, welcoming and accepting. And our rabbi can preach it with the best of them. She's been on Thought for the Day and everything!
Hello y'self! Sometimes I've been going to post on threads but you got there first and put it better, that's probably why we haven't "met".
I don't think believing in Jesus or even, for that matter, in God is a prerequisite to being a Bishop nowadays, don't let that stop you. But the shortage in the trouser department could be a definite obstacle. Maybe you ought to follow up one of those penis enlarger adverts. Or stick a laser flashlight in yer underwear.
To drag this conversation back on topic: Men are supposed to be better at preaching. Do we believe this? I don't, although there is some research that indicates deeper voices are generally perceived as more authoritative. Occasionally I accidentally catch the end of the Sunday service on Radio 4 (can't stand canned religion) which sometimes has a female priest, and it sounds fine to me. Dr Johnson eat your heart out.
Snort! Hey, despite often being on the same thread, I think this is the first time we've actually talked! Hello, fellow Annie. Anyway, I suspect that being a Jewish atheist may scupper my Bishop ambitions, regardless of whether or not I own a penis.
I am a man on Facebook. I found it stopped all the "Learn how Kate Middleton lost a gazillion pounds in 20 minutes" adverts. Now I get adverts for catheters and laser flashlights instead .
Tell you what, Annie: try applying for a job as a Bishop and see how far you get. That'll soon tell you.
Just did the test. I failed the spot the difference, which surprised me, I'm usually good at differenced. I also got 1/12 for empathy, which I guess means I'm a bitch . I got 50/50 male/female though, so I don't know what I am!
I really just don't believe that crap about spatial awareness. I got 15/20 on that bit which is what men on average get. I NEVER use spatial awareness skills in my everyday life and never have done.
I'm sure if I'd been a boy and been encouraged to play with lego, taken Tech drawing or woodwork (us girls weren't allowed), played lots of videogames (which are offputting to many girls because they're clearly not aimed at them) then my spatial awareness would be even higher and SBC et al would be declaring that I have an extreme male brain and am an anomaly for my sex.
I mean, seriously, isn't it obvious that upbringing has an effect on people? It's so basic. It's so John Stuart Mill. It's so last season!
And while we're at it why do the "innate differencers" have this idea that if you're good at one thing you can't be good at another? Loads of the great philosophers / thinkers / inventors were a mixture of different interests and skills that employed both parts of the brain. It's entirely possible that girls are good at both. Why the need to limit us, to say oh men are good at spatial stuff, so women can't be, let's give men engineering and women empathy? It's all a bit stupid and illogical.
I have been practising peeing standing up since I heard that it can be done. And it can too! I haven't been brave enough to try outside the shower yet, but I can aim it right down the plug hole!
<shamelessly reduces tone of thread>
Actually women can pee standing up although it's probably not advisable but we men will never breast feed or give birth
Well, according to that test I (a woman) am better at spacial awareness than A LOT of men. Which man is better that which woman at what? The only things I know for sure are:
1) Men are better at peeing standing up, as others have said.
2) Women are better (in fact, exclusively so) at having babies and breastfeeding.
Hang on. That's two things women are better at.
You know men are better at peeing standing up.
You're giving us breastfeeding ?!
I would hope we are better than men at that!
Well I think men ARE better at certain things than we are liek spacial awareness and therefore ball games/driving etc but then women are better at other things such as empathy, breastfeeding and multi tasking. It's what society values the most that we have a problem with.
I put 50:50 on that thing too...sounds like most of us did (or maybe those who didn't don't want to admit it). Maybe people interested in the sort of questions raised in this thread are a self-selecting group disposed to fairness and equality.
Oops. c&p / italics fail there.
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