Violence Against Women

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

[Feckbox]

I read it, but can't comment one way or another. It's a subject I have no experience or understanding of

[AKissIsNotAContract]

I don't agree, I think it's transphobic bollocks. I also think your link should come with a warning as some might not want to see the graphic images.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Have asked mnhq to add something to thread title or op to say link has graphic images.

[RandallPinkFloyd]

I've avoided commenting on any of your recent threads OP but imo you've gone too far this time.

Agree with Pan there's definitely an interesting discussion to be had but that is clearly not your intention.

That link is vile.

Reported and hidden.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I think this is a new angle as the article is talking about FtM whereas every other bunfight discussion I've seen on here has focussed on MtF which presents an entirely different set of problems (or not, depending on your POV) for women.

I think the author has a point worthy of discussion but the tone of the article, together with the use of the grim images is IMO really insensitive.

[Leithlurker]

What exactly is new about it? I am fairly sure all aspects of people changing gender was poured over adnausem a few weeks back.

Or is the difference that some women do not want to be women and somehow that means men are attacking and mutilating them after being asked to do so by the former women. These former women incidentally go through months and months of psychological examination to weed out those that are either confused and unhappy, or those that have some psychological damage that is at the root of their desire to change. Only after satisfying those external examiners will any modification be carried out. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that no attack or anti women action is happening, rather a surgical procedure that has been proven to be needed by the individual concerned. It also cannot be against women as exactly the same is on offer to male who wish to become women.

[Uppercut]

Gender dysphoria is a neurological disorder, not a political football.

A person could frame this illness in terms of 'women mutilate themselves so they that they can grow penises and escape male violence' but... not if they wanted to say anything meaningful.

[PanofOlympus]

Message from MNHQ - "Oh no, not this shit again!"

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

at Pan

[KoPo]

Eats I have avoided saying this for some time and have kept my tongue. But a number of your threads have this same method of posting something inflammatory and then waiting for the bunfight to ensue. Why?

You repeatedly come across as anti trans, anti man, and at times seemingly even anti woman who dosn't agree with you. Just what is it you are seeking here? I think you are coming from a place of personal pain and resentment, but there are ways of having a reasonable discussion.

In the words of Dragons Den ... "I'm out"

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I am back. As I have repeatedly said on other threads I dont spend much time on mumsnet usually, so I do come back, but I have spent the last 10 hours in real life.

I thought this link was tragic because it shows women mutilating their bodies. As the author says, we try and stop women mutilating their bodies through anorexia or other means, so why is this form of mutilation okay?

Sorry for not including a trigger warning with the photos. But they show what we are talking about when we talk about surgery on women. Lots have seen programmes on TV about surgery on men, but I have never seen anything on TV about the realities of the outcomes for surgery on women.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Yes Kim I know quite a few Trans peopel - men and women.

The alternative perhaps is to give psychological help to help these women deal with their gender dysphoria. It is a psychological illness that needs psychological treatment.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Actually yes, kind of. I have read the original research papers arguing the biological origins of gender dysphoria and they are quite clearly wrong. There is no evidence at all that gender dysphorioa is anything other than apsychological disorder.

[KRITIQ]

I'm not going to click the link. I used to be a nurse and did placement in operating theatres and surgical wards. Many surgical procedures are very gory to watch - during and in the aftermath - including things like hip replacements and nasal resections. Those procedures could be called "mutilation" as well, but it seems alarmist to use the term when referring to a procedures that improves the physical and/or mental health and well being of the patient.

So sorry, it's not something one can compare to anorexia or self-harming because there is clearly NO positive physical or mental health outcome as a result of the individual's actions.

[KRITIQ]

Throughout history, there have always been people who have attempted to pathologise "difference," in people they regarded as inferior to them. Sometimes they argued that biologically they were inferior (e.g. race, sex,) and sometimes they labelled people with mental illnesses rather than considering that their behaviour was a not unreasonable response to prejudice (e.g. African Caribbean and Irish immigrants to the UK this century.)

This insistence that trans people are suffering only from a mental illness that should be "cured" with psychiatric drugs or talking cures only is a more recent manifestation of this.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Research shows that after surgery self reported happiness goes up in the short term. But after 2 years self reported happiness and the level of suicides goes back to the level pre surgery. There is absolutely no evidence for positive outcomes for this surgery. It does not statistically make women or men any happier.

[Leithlurker]

Jeeso, have a word with yourself Eats. Would you say the same about lipo suction, or gastric band fitting. What about nose jobs, or ear pinning?

Your whole argument is that those women who believe that they would be better off as a male are sick. So you would what go back to electric shock therapy, use of strong drugs that alter the mind? Thats what they used to do to gay people, or anyone else who did not conform to a stereotype. Except in this instance it is a feminist stereotype. How emancipated of you.

Who exactly would pay for this treatment? You clearly locate the problem in the individual so they would pay for the drugs, the psychologists, therapists etc. It certainly will not be the nhs as their exists a proven treatment that seems cost effective and successful. I do not think that the nhs will not be spending resources on two different methods of treating the same issue.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

As usual, this is an interesting debate in theory but this thread is upsetting and comes across as deliberately provocative.

I'm glad I didn't click the link - and I partly didn't click it because the OP, who's been told before how to do links, doesn't think anyone reading deserves the basic courtesy of providing a proper one. Or apparently of providing trigger warnings.

Maybe this is a good moment to point out that we can't trust that the credentials people claim on the net, are real. People on this thread may be medical experts in transgender surgery (though it would seem strange if those same people were also ideologically opposed to the practice). But we don't know.

Reading original research papers does not make one a medical expert, but since they're all I can get, if I could have a link to them, please, that would be useful.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

There are a lot of original research papers. But this blog which debunks the research around a biological origin of gender dysphoria has links to lots of original research papers.

biologicaltheoriestrans.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/sexual-hormones-and-the-brain/