Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

[scottishmummy]

There no section called feminism light topic
radfem topic initiated by mn, and IMO a good move
numerous posters complained about hectoring by vociferous posters

[enimmead]

I don't really think the Rad Fems have gone too far. The Rad Fem topic seems to not be used.

[scottishmummy]

I don't know if people hav disappeared or not
mnhq had to address the points raise about the tone of posts on fwr
the fwr is as good as those who post it's not defined by any particular posters

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I miss Leningrad. I know she's still 'around' but I miss her.

The 'radfem' topic (as this thread demonstrates) doesn't shut out the hectoring by vociferous posters, and I don't think anyone wanted it at all.

[scottishmummy]

I can't see any hectoring on this thread
hectoring requires a heated disagreement or contention
no one disagreeing yet

[Portofino]

Yes - No-one in the RadFem topic. I want to see the RadFems! It was the hardcore and knowledgable ones that made me THINK about stuff. It is very sad if they don't post anymore.

[scottishmummy]

not the case no one wanted rad fem topic
mnhq initiated it after feedback by other posters
obviously mnhq wanted it enough initiate the fwr topic

[Portofino]

I want to hear about all elements of Feminism really - don't want to go to a special place where they only chat about what you know,

[TunipTheVegemal]

The radfem topic went didn't it? I can't find it and I assume MNHQ got rid of it when they realised it wasn't what people wanted.

[scottishmummy]

fwr is pretty varied and lively
if your keen on a particular subject,post
I think the changes good.less combative,less attacking

[Portofino]

My "enjoyment" of FWR to date - though I would hesitate to use the word enjoy - is that my views - formed under a patriarchy - have been challenged and discussed. I have really thought about things I held dear, and changed my mind. I would not have done that without the RadFems, and fear that no MNetter unsure about things will ever dare to venture there...

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

As I recall the bun fight in the summer, various non-rad-fem posters (who might self describe as liberal feminists, choice feminists, "I'm not a feminist buts", you'd have to look up the threads) asked for a rad fem section where the rad fems could safely be coralled. Not surprisingly many of those posters who self identify as radical feminists (I'm heading that way myself, partly helped along by some of the extremely articulate posters on mumsnet) didn't like this at all; it felt too much like being sent to coventry. So no one uses the rad fem section, because the radical feminists still here don't want to be marginalised, and some felt so marginalised they left entirely.

I think there was the occasional case where perhaps an individual poster went too far and a robust defence of radical feminism strayed into the regions of personal attack, but that was balanced by posters of a liberal/non feminist/anti feminist persuasion who were determined to take offence not at personal attacks, but simply at people holding and being prepared to argue for alternative and more radical positions. I'd say the overall standard of debate on here has dropped off a bit. There's still some really good, insightful discussions, but a lot of rather genteel avoiding of the point going on too. The Naomi Wolf webchat was pretty good, though.

[scottishmummy]

lol that's not how it was,but don't let facts disrupt you
mnhq initiated radfem topic,due to feedback received about fwr topic
unfortunately some found that fwr could be a harsh enough place.which was shame

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

Funnily enough I thought you'd probably remember events differently, ScottishMummy, but never mind. I think it's pretty incontrivertible, though, that the rad fem section was not asked for by the radical feminists, and at the time (when MNHQ floated the idea) most of us said we thought it was an attempt to marginalise and quarantine the radical feminist voices on mumsnet.

I also think there is a strong element of patriarchal expectations about women's style of discussion at issue. (And this bit is not aimed at you, SM: I get the strong impression you can more than handle a robust discussion ). Some posters didn't like other posters getting angry about issues. And radical feminists are often angry, justifiably so, because there's a lot to be angry about - domestic violence, rape, FGM, forced marriages, women's marginalisation worldwide, unequal pay, etc. The list is huge. But according to the patriarchal world view, women aren't supposed to get angry, that's unfeminine. So when a woman gets heated or angry in a discussion, this is somehow taken as beyond the pale, and others (including some other women who have internalised patriarchal values about appropriate female behaviour) try to silence angry women, or dismiss them as over-emotional (actually, I always find it remarkable how articulate and able to step away from the personal and draw intellectual lessons of value from their experiences some of the posters on here are, especially some of the rape survivors). I still stand by the view that I hardly ever saw self-identified rad fems stoop to personal attacks, though. And some of the cases which were described as bullying behaviour simply looked like someone who didn't like being disagreed with.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

d'oh, incontrovertible. 5am start, my brain is scrambled, must go to bed now.

[scottishmummy]

well you would say that wouldn't you
given it suits your opinion
such is the subjectivity of recall.people recalls in a way favourable to ones pov

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It seems you think you're above subjectivity, SM?

[scottishmummy]

mnhq were obviously sufficiently satisfied there was hectoring,bullying
as they responded to comments submitted
and speaks volumes that they considered some aspects of fwr problematic

[scottishmummy]

i am subjective and my recall will be too,of course
mnhq initiated radfem topic in response to others posters concens
I dont expect radfems to be happy with mnhq decision.but hey mnhq they call the shots

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

And we get there in the end.

[scottishmummy]

run down feminism?not at all
rebuke hectoring,and name calling yes
And I wasn't only one to do so

[lemonmuffin]

mnhq set up the radfem topic in response to the large number of complaints and reports they had from other mumsnetters about behaviour in the fwr section.

Read the infamous threads from a few months ago if you need to refresh your memory lrd.

[SuperB0F]

It does seem like a bit of a vacuum has been created. And I don't think it has been filled by posters of the same quality, when it comes to the loudest voices. Many of the feminist posters I really rate simply don't spend every waking hour on mumsnet, so I don't hear as much from them as I'd like, in terms of quality debate and insight.

[Portofino]

I quite agree BoF. The people who were truly inspirational to me just don't post anymore. And when we are talking of behaviour in the FWR topic - surely it was the MRA trolls that made it unpleasant rather than women discussing feminism?