What are your thoughts on this Andrea Dworkin quote?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I love this quote. Wondered what women here thought about it?

""It is not in becoming a whore that a woman becomes an outlaw in this man's world; it is in the possession of herself, the ownership and effective control of her own body, her seperateness and distinctness, the integrity of her body as hers, not his.

Prostitution may be against the written law, but no prostitute has defied the prerogatives or power of men as a class through prostitution. No prostitute provides any model for freedom or action in a world of freedom that can be used with intelligence and integrity by a woman; the [happy hooker] model exists to entice counterfeit female sexual revolutionaries, gullible liberated girls, and to serve the men who enjoy them" ~ Andrea Dworkin, 'Right-Wing Women'"

[CailinDana]

It's spot on IMO.

But are there those who claim prostitution is a way of defying "the prerogatives or power of men as a class"?

[Leithlurker]

It is flawed in the sense that calling men a "class" is not a valid statement. So the sense that she is trying to convay that of power and the use of power is lost. It can easily be replaced by other descriptions but it is interesting that she uses class.

I would be interested to see the whole text to see if she has a source for using that description.

[Leithlurker]

Sorry my apologise to Dworkin (She should be in the slightest worried ha!) and to you Eats I mis read what Callina said. As you were!

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Feminists talk about class of men as a political class. It is men as a class who oppress women as a class. This is basic feminism leithlurker.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

I think she is using class in the sense of group. How do you interpret it, LL?

[seeker]

Isn't she using "class" to mean "group of similar organisms"? In a biological sense?

[namechangeguy]

Basic feminism seems to run away as soon as it is posed a difficult question, so I wonder how useful it really is?

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

What the actual fuck does that post mean, NCG?

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Which question?

The thread was started less than two hours ago, how can anyone have been said to have abandoned it?

[Hullygully]

Is it her or you who can't spell sepArate?

My consideration of the quote's merit is marred by this appalling faux pas.

[Leithlurker]

No Idea what NCG is on, waiting with baited breath to find out as it sounds like good stuff and I am hoping I can have some!

So to my class thing, I would still like some reference to where that notion comes from, if it is one that she has coined herself (Dwarkin) then I think it is as useful as using the the "The Disabled". It lumps many different experiences, points of view, politicle, social, and economic factors together and then reduces them to the lowest common denominator. This is symptomatic of something that is not just confined to feminism, but is actually reflective of neo liberal and even right wing thinking. Akin to the argument that right wingers espouse that we are all selfish and that we will always put ourselves first. Hence the ability of Thatcher to claim that "no such thing as society exists".

I am not saying that feminists are neo liberal, but see that's my point I am not saying that because I I know that we cannot reduce women, people in to easy fit categories. So why then as a constructive criticism of power do "some" feminists want to do that when it comes to calling men a separate class?

[MisogynistToolMagnet]

You mean the possibility that they had real life to deal with, NCG?

She's right, to an extent. However, I'd argue that being a woman, in a man's world, makes you an outlaw. They set impossible goals for women to reach, and chastise us when we miss the post, even by a margin.

[MisogynistToolMagnet]

Hully, please don't pick on people's spelling. I struggle with separate, thanks to dyslexia. It's really most unpleasant.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

NCG if you have an issue with Eats, you have am issue with Eats. Why describe that as an issue with basic feminism?

[Hullygully]

Soz, misogynist. No harm intended.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

hully, I think you mean 'quotation'. But yes, that's wince-inducing.

namechange, I don't see where she's not responding to questions? You do know that 'not answering as I, namechangeguy, would like' is not the same as 'not answering'. Give her a break and let her come back in her own time.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Hi I must spend about 20 - 30 minutes a day on mumsnet tops and dont come here every day. If there is a question I havent answered please tell me. I am not ignoring it.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Class means a political glass i.e. a group of people who are put into a group in order to fight for civil rights. So black people are a political class who identify themselves as a group to fight racism.

May not be able to look back here until this very late evening by the way. Real life gets in the way.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

"The real life excuse doesn't cut it when umpteen other teaching have popped up in various threads between then and now."

Yes I started threads that I basically am not really following anymore because there are too many posts for me to keep up with - I dont have time! Starting a new thread takes 2-3 minutes tops. But pm me at any time if you have asked a question on a thraed I havent answered. I will go back and answer it.

And spelling? Really who cares!

[namechangeguy]

Thank you for the response Eats.

Re this OP, I now realise that Eats was asking for women to respond, so I will withdraw.

[Leithlurker]

I am not going to be pedantic about this but I find it difficult to see how a such a sweeping generlisation is sustainable Eats, were we to encounter the argument that all women, or even a more narrow group, all feminists hate the colour pink, we would object and rightly so. I still wait to see evidence that she or feminists have any sociological backing for using description. Otherwise it is just a way to use emotive language for political purpose. Bit like saying all disabled people are vulnerable.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Women are oppressed as a class by men as a class. that is the definition of patriarchy. Women as a class fighting the patrirachy i.e. oppression by men as a class, is the definition of feminism.

Otherwise we are all just individuals doing our own thing with no common political interests.