Is drag sexist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I have just been reading this interesting article on drag and wondered what others thought? Below is an extract.

www.wbez.org/blog/city-room-blog/onstagebackstage-drag-sexist

"What?s so funny about drag, anyway? Maybe it?s the simple incongruity: you can always knock ?em dead with chest hair pouring out of an evening gown?s cleavage. But this seems like a pretty thin joke on which to hang decades of amusement. Unless you think men are from Mars and women from Venus?that is, that differences in gender behavior are huge and immutable?the contrast doesn?t hold much interest. Certainly, the contrast between white performers and black characters was not enough in and of itself to make blackface funny. There had to be something else?and there was.

There was ridicule of African-Americans. ?Look how silly they are! But look how they laugh, and doesn?t that prove they?re happy in the confinement in which we?ve placed them?? Likewise, men who dress up as women and adopt stereotyped feminine behaviors are comical because of their stereotyped behavior, and the inference the audience is encouraged to draw is not that stereotypes are comical but that women are.

Just as in blackface African-Americans were shown singing, or dancing, or being foolish, or longing for the old plantation, in drag women are shown nagging, or domineering, or primping, or longing for male protection. Each form even has two insulting ?types.? Blackface offers Zip Coon (an urban dandy out of his depth) and Sambo (a shuffling rural fool), the first making fun of black people for being free and the second for being slaves. Drag presents the Glamor Girl and the Pantomime Dame, the first making fun of women for our sexuality and the second for our lack of it."

[PretzelTime]

Drag artists very seldom imitate real women, only old caricatures. I've always wondered: If it's just the glitter and glamour these men want, why the need for fake breasts too? Men can wear glittery costumes and still be men.

[Bossybritches22]

It's taking the mickey out of stereotypes though isn't it not trying to promote them as an acceptable viewof women?

Not my cup of tea as entertainment but it's an age old theatrical tradition.

[LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange]

Drag comedy is sexist. Imitating a caricature of a woman is no different than imitating a caricature of a black person, an Asian person, a disabled person etc etc.

It's promoting hateful stereotypes in all cases and it's wrong.

[Uppercut]

Drag queens are harmless fun, as are Drag Kings.

Unfortunately some people get off on hyperventilating about 'harmful stereotypes', not because they actually exist, because it conforms to their skewed world view. Secondly, to imply a comparison between African slaves, who were regarded as at best being partially human, to females of the same era is both asinine and grossly offensive.

What African slaves underwent is more comparable to the Holocaust.

[LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange]

Women were bought and sold into marriage and had no say over their body, could and were beaten and raped and it was their fault for not being obedient enough. They were literally the property of their father or their husband. In a large part of the world, this is still the norm but whatever.

I tend not to compare 'who had it worse.' The point is we all deserve equality and respect from harmful stereotypes.

[PretzelTime]

Do you honestly think people get off on hyperventilating about 'harmful stereotypes' Upper? I can think of sexier things.

[Uppercut]

"Women were bought and sold into marriage and had no say over their body, could and were beaten and raped and it was their fault for not being obedient enough. They were literally the property of their father or their husband. In a large part of the world, this is still the norm but whatever."

www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/slaveship.htm

Standard conditions for the average 18th century white female. Would you like to see some pictures from Auschwitz c. 1945, too? I don't deny the existence of social inequality, but feminists do themselves no favours by making these ridiculous comparisons.

And I am not 'harmed' by a person disguised, in some cases very convincingly, as the opposite sex. More often I am impressed by the skill such a transformation takes.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Uppercut, it is not about saying who had it worse. That isnt a helpful argument.

But drag does take the piss out of women. And thus it is a reflection of our male dominated society

[Uppercut]

PretzelTime
"Do you honestly think people get off on hyperventilating about 'harmful stereotypes' Upper? I can think of sexier things. "

Some people do indeed seem to get high off the thought of being on the spearhead of a campaign against social injustice, regardless off the validity of the particular target (drag artists in this case).

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"Uppercut, it is not about saying who had it worse. That isnt a helpful argument."

Someone should think about that before making comparisons then, shouldn't they?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"But drag does take the piss out of women. And thus it is a reflection of our male dominated society"

Then I should feel equally threatened by the 'female sub-class' invading and eroding my 'patriarchal space' with their fake moustaches and pseudo-baritone voices.

But I don't.... I just can't summon the energy to get wound up over nothing.

[LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange]

When did I ever say I was talking only about white women?

I'm talking about women. Period.

No, I don't need pictures from Auschwitz. Enough of my family were murdered there. Well actually Sobibor.

Drag for comedy emulates stereotypes, and it is offensive IMO. Pluss the whole concept of a man dressed as a woman for comedy? It's like sayng 'Look! I'm a woman! How sad is that!'

If women were not second class citizens I'd view it differently, more like insult comedy (which I also find unoriginal.)

Female comedians don't dress up as men on a consistent basis because people don't find that funny. Why is that do you think?

Genuine question if anyone can answer for me?

[PretzelTime]

That because men are serious and cool but frilly ladies are silly!

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Hmm. I've never thought about it, so never considered it sexist iyswim. Then, to be honest, I've only ever seen drag on TV (Lily Savage et al). I always found Lily amusing, because despite the OTT hair and make up etc she was always...human iyswim. I never found her 'feminine' or thought she was suppsoed to be. Then I believe Paul O'grady based her on the women who bought him up. Mind you, thinking about it, Lily is a prostitute isn't she?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

So chickens, as lurking says, why do people laugh at a man dressed up as a woman, but we dont have women dressing up as men - or only very rarely? And the only example I can think of of women dressing up as men - French and Saunders as 2 old offensive men - is taking the piss out of a certain kind of man.

[limitedperiodonly]

I wouldn't call it sexist but I do think it's insulting.

It seems to me that the best part of the joke for drag queens is that so many women like it.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Don't drag queens generally take the piss out of a certain kind of woman, though? Unless we're talking those hideous 'Bounty' ads which pissed me off massively. Because wiping up stuff is such a female occupation that men used in the ad had to wear dresses, ffs. Les Dawson used to do the 'grumpy old gossip' type, didn't he? I genuinely can't decide whether I should find drag offensive or not. None of the examples I can think of relate to my experience of being a woman. But like I said, I've only seen popular mainstream drag acts. I have no idea whether drag in clubs is different. The thing is, with Lily Savage for example, I stopped thinking it was a man in drag. The character was just the character, iyswim. But I've never found Dame Edna funny .

[limitedperiodonly]

chickens I have a soft spot for Les Dawson and Roy Barraclough because I never saw them be spiteful. Just accurately but affectionately cariacaturing two working class, slightly prudish women, one of whom felt superior to the other for no good reason.

I also liked Alastair Sim in St Trinians. And I loved Babs from The League of Gentlemen because to me they were poking fun at transsexuals. Sorry if any transsexuals are reading but I found it funny.

Mixed feelings about Little Britain because I found it geniuinely funny at first. But on the whole the dragging up got less funny and more vicious.

Hated Lily Savage after a female friend took me to see Paul O'Grady as Lily at Madame JoJo's in Soho. Not really my kind of place but she loved it there. O'Grady was fucking vicious. It was a horrible atmosphere and I could feel the hate and derision directed at the women in the audience. My friend didn't notice it. Haven't liked O'Grady ever since though I've never seen him do anything nasty again. I think there's a world of difference between comedians' TV and live acts.

I've found Dame Edna funny but I've always detected an undercurrent of spite. Barry Humphries' son Oscar was awful about a 30-something semi-famous Sloane he had a holiday fling with a few years ago. It was very misogynist and a bit queeny tbh. Wondered what his father thought. Don't remember her name now. Will look it up.

[limitedperiodonly]

It was Mrs Jimmy Choo aka Tamara Mellon about 10 years ago when she was 37 and he was 22. The pieces he wrote were probably intended to be appreciative but really came over as: 'Look at this sad cow who's buying me dinner'.

Then by tragic accident she was outed...

[cantthinkofadadsname]

It is bizarre, isn't it? You get the funny panto dame at pantomimes but you never really see the reverse comedy version in pantos. The women pretending to be a man is not really a comedy send up.

You see men dressed up as women for comedy effect - yet hardly ever the inverse. I'm sure there's a reason - and the drag queens are hardly representations of real women. I'm not entirely sure how to describe them.

But women rarely dress up as men. I know you get drag kings but they're uncommon.

[PretzelTime]

Well it's ok for women to dress in what used to be men's wear (trousers etc) now, but it's not ok for men to wear skirts and make-up. It's still seen as something only for women, and a man who wears it emasculates himself by wearing silly women's clothes. I guess that's what's the comedy of it is.

[madwomanintheattic]

I talk a lot to my trans friends about stereotyping of women. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that women are all bling and sparkle, or conversely, all fetish wear in rubber or leather, however easy clean.

I don't see drag acts as inherently harmful, though. It's character stuff, not real life. They aren't trying to 'pass', they are trying to be over the top for an entertainment purpose. The fact that they deliberately advertise as drag I find quite comforting, as they really just parody the whole gender divide, and (if they are good enough) make the audience see that there is v little difference that a sparkly frock doesn't hide.

So, quite a leveling process, I think.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Do they really parody the gender divide though, or just parody woman?

[drjohnsonscat]

I think there is an element of female being inherently funny whereas male is the norm and therefore not amusing. I don't like drag for that reason.

I always thought Little Britain was particularly bad on this. I especially hated the weeing old lady - not least because it's men who have incontinence round my way judging by the public urination in the street that we have to put up with! David Walliams could have done something much funnier, and truer, abou that.

[namechangeguy]

The only funny female-as-male act I can think of was Kathy Burke as Kevin the teenager's mate, Perry, alongside Harry Enfield. But then, Kathy Burke is generally brilliant anyway.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Didn't the 'Smack The Pony' women have some drag sketches? Or am I remembering it wrong? Quite possible Kathy Burke is brilliant.

[Consuelaa]

I don't see what's wrong with a man wearing woman's clothes if that's what he wants (or a woman wearing man's clothes).

I thought feminism was about choice and trying to grey the area of "men's clothes" and "women's clothes"?