Advice needed - thank you!

[Winetta]

Hello, I?ve posted here once or twice before and found all your thoughts invaluable ? please could you help me again...

When talking about sexism, my non-feminist friends say things like: ?It?s just how the system is set up, you can?t blame men? and that ?Men have it tough in society, too, so sexism not a female issue exclusively?.

What would you say to that?!

And how do you express - in a short, sharp, shiny way - how sexism persists today would be massively appreciated, eg any points you make in every day conversation which have clicked with people?

Thank you so much!

[sashh]

Ask them if they ant to earn less than a man doing the same job. If they don't then they are feminists.

Sexism, well if you can't blame men who can you blame? Yes that is how the system is set up, who do you think set it up that way?

[TheDoctrineOfEnnis]

Winetta, feminists don't argue that there isn't some bad things for men in the current system, but that a lot of those bad things come from the same basic root. Let's take an example of a man who wants to be a nurse. Lots of people would have no issue with that now and that's great. But for those that would tease him etc about it, why?

In my view, it is because it is a traditionally female job and such jobs tend to have less social status because of the power structures of male domination. That the insults would probably be "that's a bit girly" or "are you gay" mean that particular man is experiencing sexism but the source of that sexism is still the male power structure.

[sashh]

Another example of everyday sexism:

Usain Bolt runs fast and everyone is impressed. Caster Sameyer(?sp) runs very fast and the press start asking if she is a man.

[EdithWeston]

How about: Men have it tough in society, too, so sexism not a female issue exclusively?.

'I agree. It's important to break outdated gender-based stereotypes so that everyone benefits'

[EdithWeston]

I'd swerve the Bolt one - men who perform freakishly well are also accused of being cheats. And in the case of Ben Johnson it was shown to be true. The male/female issue here is not the suspicion of cheating, it is simply the biological range of possible ways to cheat.

[AndieMatrix]

I recommend Caitlin Moran's book How To Be A Woman to my friends who don't think they're feminists...they soon change their minds.

I agree that their is sexism towards men that take on "traditionally female" roles like nursing or being the stay at home parent, and that yes, this comes from the male power structure.

[messyisthenewtidy]

In response to the men suffer too remark I would smile sweetly and say "and that's exactly why men need feminism". They'll be and you can explain how feminism is about combatting gender stereotypes that hurt both sexes.

I have a mini Q in the same vein, if that's ok. How do you respond to the following type of remark: "meh, I don't have much time for feminism. At the end if the day you've just gotta get on with it." I've heard that so many times and I'm like

[TheDoctrineOfEnnis]

messy, how about "would you like things to be better for your daughter/godaughter/niece?"

Or "what if Emmeline Pankhurst/Martin Luther King had just said "meh, you've gotta get on with it"?"

[TheDoctrineOfEnnis]

OP, try going on everydaysexism.com for day to say stories of women being asked to make the coffee when they are the most senior person in the room, random street harassment etc. one might be your short, snappy "that's why sexism is a problem" story .

[Winetta]

Hello everyone, thank you very much for all your replies, very useful. I will pass on Caitlin Moran's book to my friends for sure; I love that its categories are "Humour/Feminism" - I can't think of too many more books that would be labelled as such... although I'd love to hear of any!

TheDoctrine, I will have a look at everydaysexism.com immediately; I have a feeling I will be able to contribute a few examples myself!

Thanks again, all!

[bobbledunk]

I really don't see how the hordes of unemployed young men with no future have an advantage over me or any relatively privileged woman due to their sex. Advantage is determined by class and money. Sex is irrelevant. If you're poor, you're fucked, whether you're a man or woman. If you're middling, you're ok, whether man or woman. If you're rich you have it made, whether you are a man or woman. It is not men that run the world, it is rich people, mainly rich men who run it to the benefit of their wives and daughters as much as themselves. Rich women have the same opportunities if they're bothered to work (most aren't).

I have been to the funerals of 6 suicides in the last couple of years, all men, 4 of them under 30. Men have very serious problems too, more so from what I see happening to people around me.

I'd like to know where all these female victims of patriarchy are. Of course if you go to Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia women are desperately oppressed and equally so for vulnerable immigrant women in certain deeply misogynistic communities. Not so for white, Western, European, middle class upwards who seem to think themselves so desperately oppressed because society expects them to shave their armpits.

You can argue all the 'poor little women are victims' spiel all you want, most people can see with their own eyes that the greatest barriers, the greatest misery, the greatest oppression and true victimhood are suffered by the poor, half of whom are male, including male children. Poverty is the cruelest affliction.

[24Hours]

A lot of what you day is true bobbledunk but its not either or. There are loads of ways to ne stamped on. Your gender, your race, your class, alphabet their allotted status. Generally you will find the woman getting s harder deal Han the equivalent man.

[blackcurrants]

Messy fwiw my response to 'feminism. Eh, you've just gotta get on with it.' is a steely smile and a 'feminism is getting on with it. Getting on with my life and making the world better.'

[TheDoctrineOfEnnis]

Bobbledunk, there is class advantage, skincolour advantage, gender advantage, physical ability (ie not disabled) advantage. These different kinds of advantage are acknowledged widely within feminism.

[solidgoldbrass]

YOu could also have a look at this.

[BigOldFanny]

bobbledunk, really? When 1 out of men get sexually assaulted, when domestic violence becomes an equal opportunity offender. When America (not Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia) is trying to make it illigial for women to attain an abortion (even after rape or incest) and to make it impossible for women to have access to birth control so they can have some control over their lives... make it legal for hospitals to refuse abortion when a woman's life is in danger... When men (like Galloway) can tell a woman who has been raped that she wasn't raped..AFTER the rapist has admitted to it. then men will have it just as hard.

being very kind here, because what I want to say will get me banned