Old Books

[Sausageeggbacon]

Name Change to protect the guilty. This is not my usual area of posting and not something I have thought of much before.

Not sure if this should go here or in AIBU, please bear with me as this is something I have never tried to explain before.

My DH and myself are both avid readers and in general prefer reading the classics but DH has an interest in Old Science Fiction. DS2 is a great reader and has started to pick up some of DHs' old books. One series in particular annoys me, being the lensmen series by EE "Doc" Smith as its attitude towards women is their minds can't function like men and are weaker than men's. And to be a strong woman you have to be a beautiful woman.

DH has no issues with DS2 reading it but I feel the books will reinforce the female stereotypical archetype for him. Should I ignore the issue or should I stop him reading the books? DS1 has never bothered as he is always out playing sports and DD has not interest in that type of book so only just coming face to face with it. I struggled to even start the second book because of its attitude but wanted to be sure it was suitable as we have already had issues with other early science fiction/fantasy writers.

[garlicbutter]

Although I enjoy sci-fi, I have a problem with sexism throughout the genre - well, about 85% of it anyway. My advice would be to balance it with something featuring strong female characters, and to discuss gender stereotyping with DS. And to include DH, it sounds like he could do with exercising the 'equality' part of his alien brain

Can't recommend balancing titles for you, I'm afraid, but sure others will What age is DS2?

[Dustinthewind]

Harry Harrison a classic sci fi comedy writer and is pretty good with strong female characters, but how old is your DS?
Asimov's short stories?

[garlicbutter]

Asimov! Good recommendation, Dust ... and required reading for budding sci-fi geeks

[Sausageeggbacon]

DS2 is almost 11 not really been an issue before apart from the Conan books. DH read the books when he was younger but doesn't see that the that fiction should affect the children. However I tended to role play in my head when younger and have taen years to grow out of mold society put me in. I certainly do not want my children growing up in that mold.

The issue is the books are here on books shelves making them easily accessible rather than having to go to the library. I haven't read Harry Harrison and will get one or two out of the library. As for Asimov, he read the foundation books last year and the collection based on the 3 laws. And now I getting quite scared about how much I have taking in about sci fi lol.

[Dustinthewind]

Try the Stainless Steel Rat series by Harrison. if your books are easily accessible, then he needs to ask before borrowing so that you can do a bit of filtering if necessary. I was reading Michael Moorcock's Elric series at 10.

[solidgoldbrass]

Censoring books is always a bad thing to do. Given that 80% of all entertainment media is sexist, if you only allow DC to read stuff that fits with an ethical worldview, they won't have much to read. Far better to read anything and everything, and discuss all the 'isms' in a general way.

[AgnesCampbellMacPhail]

I'd talk to him about the contents. See if he's spotted the misogyny and if he hasn't, point it out to him.

I still haven't read anything by Terry Pratchett and I'm not a sci fi fan but I'm pretty good on feminist-friendly fantasy books if you want recommendations.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Thanks for the advice. Didn't really think I would be having a discussion about how the view of women has changed over the years and how much more changing is needed. Guess I will see what he picks up and discuss it with him.

[Dustinthewind]

SGB, I wasn't meaning censoring for sexism when I said filtering. My children read Terry Pratchett quite happily, but I had Poppy Z Brite on the same bookshelf and they weren't ready for that.
In the same way I didn't give them Holocaust texts when they were finding out about WW2.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Thanks, well I will let him read the books and see what/if he picks anything up from it. One of those things that will take some time to educate DS2. And DH has a lot to answer for.

[SpeverendRooner]

The sexism in the Lensman series isn't exactly subtle, and I speak as a man who last read the series aged about fifteen. If your DS is anything like me he's enjoying the books in spite of the grating feeling every time Clarissa bravely holds back tears as Kinnison goes off in to danger.

If he wants to stick with Doc Smith, the Family D'Alembert series is a huge improvement. The main characters are a brother and sister team of secret agents; the Emperor abdicates in favour of his daughter a few books in and she is also more than capable. One of the two senior villains is female and a formidable antagonist.

I will just add that (a) it's a while since I read them, and (b) lurking here has rather dented my confidence in my feminist credentials. The books are certainly better than the Lensman and Skylark serieses, but I won't venture an opinion on whether they actually show equality.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Not subtle in the least. Yes he is enjoying the books and so far he hasn't mentioned anything the female characters. The Skylark series is also on the book shelf but not the other so if he wants to read more will see what the library can do.

[SpeverendRooner]

Two comments on the Lensman now some of it has come back from the depths of my memory. First that the series is chock full of anachronisms - slide rules, vastly over-simplified Heroic Good Guys/Cowardly Bad Guys characterisation, and the depiction of women. Anachronisms might be a way into the conversation if you want to have it. I think that's basically how I saw the women (and men, to be honest) in the series - an artifact of the time and culture in which the series was written. Secondly, I think someone pointed out the lack of female characters to Smith, because late on he abruptly promotes Clarissa from cardboard cutout love interest/wife to a Grey Lensman in her own right, and introduces a female secondary character (Ilona Potter, I think). It's all rather ham-handed to my memory, but seems to suggest that even Doc Smith was a bit embarassed about it. The last book in the series, Children of the Lens, is about Rod and Clarissa's children, two of whom are girls who go out and do things as well as the men. That's a bit more successful because there's no character re-engineering going on.

That's a bit of a ramble, but I hope it gives you some 'ins' for a conversation if you want to have it.