Crikey it feels a bit like a war zone at the moment!

[msrisotto]

I'm talking about that silly MRA group. It was so nice that we got the "I believe you" campaign going, such a valuable campaign. I suppose what with mothers day coming up as well, it just proved too much for the misogynists! So sad.

[msrisotto]

Although I've just seen that they have less followers on twitter than trills. LOL.

[messyisthenewtidy]

It's crazy because I think that officially speaking F4J and the feminists on Mumsnet have a lot of common ground: they both believe that mothers and fathers should share equally in the upbringing of their children. Maybe Justine and F4J leader should sit down and come up with a plan.

I support the basic principle of shared parenting after divorce and would welcome a move toward that in the law (in cases where there was no violence obviously and accompanied by a serious effort to reduce pay gap). But the F4J's tactics of bullying Mumsnet and saying that it depicts "all men" as rapists is just horrid and way off the mark, and completely alienates me from the F4J as an organization.

Is there pro feminist fathers' rights organization that works with mothers rather than against them?

[AbsentFather]

"Is there pro feminist fathers' rights organization that works with mothers rather than against them?"

Families need Fathers

They are less about stunts for publicity and more about support and gently changing public opinion.

Louis de Bernieres is the patron and they act as good examples of how men should behave when faced with losing their children. I have seen them look to assist single mothers who wish to involve the father of their children back in his childrens lives.

[KRITIQ]

Families Need Fathers? Seriously? They may not go in for the stunts like F4J, but they are hardly pro-feminist, not by a long chalk.

Elsewhere in this section, there's a long thread discussing the recent article on Louis de Bernieres, whining about men being denied access. I'd certainly question his feminist credentials as well.

[SardineQueen]

There was another organisation mentioned on another thread as well.

Louis de B got a slating on here the other day over some article in one of the papers, I can't remember much about it though.

[SardineQueen]

just had a look - separated dads

Don't know anything about them though

[AbsentFather]

Why is whining about men being denied access against the feminist cause?

We are all fighting against gender discrimination

[SardineQueen]

I think Louis de B was whining on about how awful it all was but the content of the article showed that he was in fact the unreasonable one?

I think. I only skimmed it, Kritiq may know more.

Like the F4J bloke who (mind-bogglingly) said that he didn't blame his ex for stopping contact, due to his drinking and unpredictable behaviour, but that even so he thinks he should have been allowed access. Which is . And that as soon as he stopped being pissed and unpredictable his ex reverted to plenty of contact again. Which begs the question - why did he feel the need to set up the group? By his own admission she was reasonable and he was not. It's all a bit baffling.

I do think that there are issues with the family courts, and there are issues on both sides with rights / responsibilities regarding children after separation. But these issues are not being tackled in a straightforward sensible way from what I can see, with F4J anyway, there is a lot of unfocussed hate.

[AbsentFather]

I have read many of the Louis de B's whinings and the point he seems to make is that neither he nor the wife are unreasonable. The current laws, the courts and the legal profession are a disgrace in a modern democracy.

Fathers for justice are sadly people who are in desperate need for a way to vent their frustrations. They are the modern day suffragettes. They will get the publicity, whilst the real work is being done quietly with politicians to change the law gradually. Sadly that is not fast enough for all people.

[SardineQueen]

F4J are the modern day suffragettes?

Are you taking the mickey?

[msrisotto]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Suffragettes my arse.

[Dworkin]

Ah can't we not go here again. Did the protest against M&S not work? Don't feed the trolls.

[AbsentFather]

It would be nice to have equality in the Family Courts.

Sadly they could put signs in the court with the front benches reserved for women only, and for males to only sit at the back and it would not seem out of place.

[SardineQueen]

Aren't the judges and solicitors and things ever men then?

Whenever I see a picture of a courtroom it is positively heaving with blokes.

[AbsentFather]

Family courts are never heaving. They are closed courts.

There will be the judge and the clerk. There will be the Applicant and their barrister or legal adviser. There will be the Respondent and their legal adviser or barrister.

I counted 5 people when I last went.

They like to hide this disgraceful process behind closed doors.

[SardineQueen]

But what I am getting at, is are you saying that there are all women in family courts, which is totally different from what goes on in normal courts where it's men all over the shop.

[AbsentFather]

You may mock but it is clearly who F4J model themselves on. Chaining themself to railings, detonating bombs, hunger strikes and other militant acts.

The cause is different and may not be as valid in your opinion, but the same inequalities still exist.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Did the suffragettes also strip off naked then?

[AbsentFather]

I am not saying at all that "there are all women in family courts"

It is possibly an even split and with the judges it is probably more men.

What you will quickly realise when you step foot in a family court is the gender discrimination. It is like the court scenes from "To kill a mockingbird".

You can argue however eloquently and coherently that the case put against you is a nonsense but the fact remains that if an allegation is made against you, you are guilty if you are male.

You then have to disprove false allegations and the court will still then err on the side of caution and grant you only limited access.

[SardineQueen]

Loads of women have found that access has been granted to men who really should not be allowed access.

Many people think that there are problems with the family courts.

To imagine that only men have a bad experience with them is incorrect.

[messyisthenewtidy]

"You can argue however eloquently and coherently that the case put against you is a nonsense but the fact remains that if an allegation is made against you, you are guilty if you are male. "

What are you basing this assertion on?

[AbsentFather]

That is part of the overall problem with the family court system encouraging false allegations.

It has now become impossible for the courts to distinguish between real cases of abuse and the fabrications made up on the encouragement of solicitors.

No one is prosecuted for perjury in the family courts. You can make whatever allegation you like and the court will never prosecute you even if you admit you have lied on oath.

The courts are a farce. The UK (more England) is at the bottom of the UNICEF table for child welfare in developed countries. Much of the blame lies with the legal profession for causing the breakdown of relationships between children and parents.

Instead of attacking women, F4J should be going after the legal profession.

[SardineQueen]

Oh I SEE

Women are liars, innit.

Men always tell the truth.

Now I understand!!!

[Meglet]

The suffragette comment has entertained me hugely.