following on from the 'We Believe You' campaign, I am starting to worry about how I raise my children...

[Kveta]

ok, the thread title makes NO sense, I am aware of that. My thoughts on this are very muddled.

But I have been reading all of the horrifying stories on the We Believe You thread, and it is starting to worry me.

I have a young son, and am expecting a daughter soon (if the scans are right, of course).

How the hell do I raise them to understand that, in his case, no means no - and 'if in doubt, leave it out'. And in both cases, but particularly hers, to be able to tell me if anyone even comes close to touching her inappropriately, because not only will I believe her, but I will back any actions she plans to take in response (within the law, obviously :o).

I don't want to be heavy handed in my approach, and militant, but do want them to know they can come to me (or DH) if anything bad happens to them, and we will fight their corner. But for some reason I am scared that DS will grow up in a culture of 'women are asking for it' and will be like my rapist - a seemingly perfectly decent bloke, who just doesn't get that NO means just that. (DS is 2 btw, so I'm not exactly getting signs from him that this will happen in 15 years time - I am just a natural worrier).

And I'm also terrified that my as-yet-unborn daughter will be subject to the constant petty sexual harrassment I experienced, or worse. You know, the little gropings by teachers, the bra strap pinging, the pat on the bum from strange men in the street, the flashing, the inappropriate suggestions from strangers. Just little things, but horrifying none the less.

I know I'm massively overthinking things here, but does anyone have any ideas?

[StealthPolarBear]

Yes, ikwym. Lurking.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

You are your children's role-model Your relationship with your DH or DP is what they will regard as 'the norm' for a male/female relationship. All the other influences in the world won't come close to that. So if you treat each other with respect and love, that's what they will use as their template. At the same time, you do everything you can to help them develop a sense of self-respect i.e. encouraging them not to run with the herd but to think for themselves. And you also encourage them to be polite and considerate towards other people. Someone with a good model for a male/female relationship and with a high degree of self-respect and consideration for others is unlikely (not guaranteed, obviously) to be neither a victim nor an abuser....

[bananaistheanswer]

This is a worry for me too. I have an almost 7 yr old DD who enjoys playing mostly with boys. I've been trawling the internet for books upon books that help me explain things to her in an age appropriate way. I really want to be able to teach her ways to have self respect, self confidence and a real sense of what's right and wrong so that she can deal with whatever comes her way in terms of comments/attitude or someone invading her personal space and beyond. I just don't have a clue how to do it without demonising her friends which is a bit daft as her friends are all lovely wee boys, not yet got to the stage of being gross/rude or worse! I'd love someone to come up with some kind of guide, at age appropriate levels, that can help us guide small girls and boys to grow up with respect for each other, knowing the boundaries and also to recognise situations that are not healthy for either gender.

Will watch this thread with interest as I'm clutching at straws with this one.

[Kveta]

Cogito yes, that's all very well and good - but my rapist grew up in a house where his parents loved and respected eachother (I used to go round there a lot! and they were a very happy family - seriously, nothing odd about the relationship that I could see).

And I grew up in a house where my parents are very respectful of each other, and there was never any untoward behaviour.

So clearly that isn't enough.

I have just read Jenny Murray's book 'That's my Boy', which does cover some gender education ideas, but I was wondering if anyone had any other useful ideas, as it is something that does worry me.

[SweetGrapes]

I know what you mean about the No thing. DS1 is only 6 and still the done thing seems to be to keep pestering even when the other person is clearly not having fun and then giggling and saying that was fun... It's a bit step to rape but not a big step also.
It's essentially the same thing isn't it - carry on playing when the other person is no longer having fun.

I tell him to stop and ask him what he thinks his friends or big sister is feeling. Empathy is probably key here.

The other thing is learning from me that No means no. It doesn't mean keep bugging and you'll get another biscuit.

The other thing is role models. He came out with 'women don't go to office' and 'boys don't do the laundry' at 4. So dad is now visibly doing more housework - not just after they've gone to bed. They have a 'boys cooking day' on saturday - that's him and dad. And ds is now doing his own laundry (with some help from me)

About the work thing, I have been talking to him about the job I had pre children and how I'm taking care of ds2 at the moment and will go back to work when ds2 is a little bigger.

He has also come out with girls don't drive buses and girls don't drive racing cars. Had a nice chat with a lady bus driver when she had parked her bus and was waiting for her time to start.

Another time he came back telling his big sister she likes barbie and pink - and it's her favourite. No thank you says dd. Thankfully, dd has sen and these things go over a head a little. She's usually in her own world and makes her own choices.

Sorry, I'm rambling but I look at ds and wonder the same thing.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

You're worried about sexual abuse but there are a host of other pitfalls that people from good families can fall into.... drugs, violence, gambling, alcohol problems, crime. No amount of books or good parenting can eliminate those things entirely. Sometimes people become horrible people in spite of everything rather than because of something. You have to do the best you can, set the framework as well as you can, and trust to luck.

[MerlinScot]

Kveta, give them very good life values. The therapist explained me that abusers/rapists have a warped valued system.
I don't know if your good parenting will be enough though, unfortunately society plays a main role in this, it's acceptable being raped, as a matter of fact I had accepted abuse and rape too as a part of my relationship with my ex, this despite my mum raised me with very strong values.
Well, if you have a daughter, teach her something I had forgotten:
ABUSE and RAPE aren't love or a sign that a man cares.
*
Good luck!!

[Kveta]

You're worried about sexual abuse but there are a host of other pitfalls that people from good families can fall into.... drugs, violence, gambling, alcohol problems, crime. No amount of books or good parenting can eliminate those things entirely. Sometimes people become horrible people in spite of everything rather than because of something. You have to do the best you can, set the framework as well as you can, and trust to luck.

I know, it's terrifying!! thanks though for your answers :)

SweetGrapes that's interesting about the gender bias comments from your DS (the book I mentioned does talk about this stuff in quite a lot of detail actually). Luckily my DH is involved in doing stuff round the house, and we both work (well, I technically work, but seem to be on MN more today ), so hopefully this will pay off in the future! DS currently loves loading and unloading the washing machine, helping cooking, has his own 'hoove' to clean the house - but he's only 2... I just need to keep him helping and understanding that he and his sister are equals I guess!

I should also say - my DH grew up under communism in Easter Europe, where men and women worked, and he was brought up with the understanding that everyone in the house pulled their weight - his father and mother BOTH cooked, cleaned, shopped, looked after the kids etc. So he is, so far, proving a pretty good partner and father, as he has never known any different! fingers crossed we can keep this up though :o

[Kveta]

ABUSE and RAPE aren't love or a sign that a man cares.

thanks Merlin - I hope to be able to get that message across, but who knows. My own sister is in a relationship which is becoming worryingly controlling, despite the same upbringing as me. Other sister is in a very equal partnership relationship, like I am, with the same upbringing as me. It is hard to know how to get the message across!

[Lexilicious]

MmeLindor did a really good blog post a little while back about how stranger danger is less common than abuse (sexual or otherwise) from someone trusted/known within the family. So it is more useful to ensure children have confidence to speak up within their own family - things like the situations where someone tells you to keep a secret from your mummy, and being able to be confident to identify when you're uncomfortable.

[mousymouseafraidofdogs]

my dc (boy and girl) are still small, but I really worry. especially about my daughter.
as if all the stereotyping we have to deal with every day is not enough.
dh is a good father, does his fair share of the housework, is loving and hands on. I hope this is enough for them to form a view/culture for them of equal-ness and openess.

[StealthPolarBear]

I do worry. Dh isn't very hands on and probably doesn't do his fair share, mainly because we have different opinions on what's necessary. So es forever tidying and hoovering, but I'm the one who cleans the kitchen and bathrooms. I also do most of the cooking and clearing up, but hell be,say, doing baths and pjs while I do that. But we are stuck in a bit of a general role and I worry that ds in particular is picking up on that. Need to get him to do more round the house. I've probably always babies him a bit. Dd too but she OS only 2 so there are things he should do but she shouldn't.

[blackcurrants]

It weighs on my mind, too. I work on teaching consent, at the moment (since DS is only 19 months, but in time I will sit down with his dolly and say "no one but mummy or daddy should ever touch you HERE and HERE and if anyone ever touches you in a way that you aren't sure about you come and tell mummy or daddy and we will make it better. You can always tell us. Surprises are great but secrets are not." - because I wish someone had told me, it would have prompted me to get help when I was molested as a very little girl).

But at the moment I am modeling consent with him. So, if he's patting the dog a bit roughly "She doesn't like it so you have to stop." or "If that little boy doesn't want to play you have to stop." and of course, his own consent. His current favourite outside game is one of his parents being a big big monster and chasing him before catching him for a cuddle and a kiss and probably some tickling. My rule with tickling (and it's something DH and I ended up discussing) is that DS has to be able to wriggle away if he wants to. He generally wriggles in for more, but it's always his option to stop the game, because it's his body.

There are some things I do with or without his consent - change a shitty nappy, bath him, dress him, take him for jabs - but everything else to do with his body is his to do or not do. Similarly, much as it might make me cringe when he refuses to give Granny/whoever a kiss or a smile or a wave, I don't make him. It's his body. I'm trying to teach him that, and i suspect if I'd had a DD I'd be doing the same, but more intently!

I do know what you mean, OP. It's hard work, and I think "No means NO" is vital, and the flipside of that is to understand and really value what
'enthusiastic consent' really means. It means not badgering or coercing someone in any way, it means having more fun with someone who really wants to have fun with you. Right now that's at the level of tickling and waving, but I hope it goes on growing.

[CailinDana]

I honestly think if you raise a child with a strong sense of self worth then that will go a long way to protecting them, as they will make good choices for themselves and for others.

I agree wholeheartedly with blackcurrants about modelling respect for a child's body right from day one. It makes me fume when I see a poor toddler being lifted off his/her feet for a kiss against their will. I would never ever do that to anyone, no matter what their age. A child should be very strongly sent the message that apart from a few essential things like washing/nappy changing/clothes changing it is up to them who gets to touch them and they have an automatic right to say no to a kiss or a hug no matter who is offering.

Vigilance and good communication are also key. I was abused because my mother just wasn't interested in me. If she'd just taken two seconds to think she would have seen what was going on.