Mumsnet Talk

Often on housework threads you will get at least one person saying "If a man had posted this, he'd be getting a slating" or something about double standards.

I always have a problem with those posts, and I've been trying to figure out why. I think I've got it. It's because that logic assumes an equal starting point. And we don't have it, do we?

I'm not sure what my thoughts really are so I thought I'd post here and ask for yours.

You got it in one, Sister.

No we don't. And that is really important. Women are expected to do housework, men not so much.

Plus, I personally think that there are so few female only spaces and on this scale MN is unique. So it is naturally very supportive of women (with the odd obvious exception). As such if men do get a hard time and sometimes we get wrong I'm not going to lose sleep over it. They have their own spaces, they have the power and the privilege too so they certainly have the capacity to create their own support networks. I am more inclined in this space to give women the benefit of the doubt. If we can't do it here then we can't do it anywhere.

Oh and I think it is really important to believe the women on this site and validate their reasonable feelings. The feminist section are very good at that.

It isn't just about housework, though , is it? It's about Wifework, isn't it? And on that note, is it still wifework if you're happy to do it? Is there such a thing as husbandwork?

Husbandwork to me is being expected to go out to work, travel for work, and work long-hours.

If you've a family you're expected to carry on in a career you hate.

Why it's not an issue that men are missing out on so much of bringing their children up is, I believe, because it's such a societal norm that the man does this. On a par with women doing the majority of the child-care.

That's this man's impression.

It's also not a societal issue, because frankly men aren't fighting very hard to change it.

Because they don't see it as an issue.

I believe it is so ingrained in them (us) they won't fight against it.

I don't really do anecdotal evidence (as I think it's pretty worthless, but I will use some) but older colleagues I work with, deeply regret working all the hours going and missing out, and now the children have flown the nest and it's too late.

You might like this

Come off it, women have been telling them for 40 years that the work, both domestic and paid, needs to be shared out more equally.

If they don't see it as an issue, then that's because they don't want to see it as an issue.

Poor menz, having to do all that commuting and long hours. ANd not realising how oppressed they are.

And it not even occurring to them, that they have a choice about this.

And yet, for the sex which has so little agency that it doesn't even know how oppressed it is, they still manage to own 90% of the world's property, have most of the seats in government, have most of the seats in the world's boardrooms and get out of doing most of the low status unpaid work.

How strange. I can't think why that might be.

"frankly men aren't fighting very hard to change it."

The ones that do try are just put down as MRAs, though.

Bullshit, MRA's aren't fighting for the right to do equal housework and childcare and to have part time work.

They're fighting to take away the rights women have gained over the last century or so.

When was the last time a MRA scaled Buckingham Palace demanding paid paternity leave and the right for all jobs to be part time unless there was a genuine reason for it not to be?

Truckulentagain wrote - "Husbandwork to me is being expected to go out to work, travel for work, and work long-hours. If you've a family you're expected to carry on in a career you hate."

Are fathers not allowed to change career to something they don't hate?
Isn't the issue more a question of income level rather than specific career?

TBH I don't know many women who can afford not to carry on working in a career they hate either.

And then when they get home, they've got wifework to do

<snort> at MRAs being desperate to snatch the dishcloth out of a woman's hand

"They're fighting to take away the rights women have gained over the last century or so."

Which specific rights do they want to see taken away? The MRA goals I've seen are usually to do with wanting equality, not dominance.

I've not mentioned MRAs.

I'm on about men (as a group) in this country, expect to go out to work.
And don't protest because they believe it is what should happen.

This is only my opinion

The Guardian had this article the other day.

m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying?cat=lifeandstyle&type=article

2. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
"This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children's youth and their partner's companionship. Women also spoke of this regret, but as most were from an older generation, many of the female patients had not been breadwinners. All of the men I nursed deeply regretted spending so much of their lives on the treadmill of a work existence."

.

So feminism has brought advantages to women and men then, because there is no longer the assumption that men work to support the family and women do wifework. Unfortunately in the two relationships I know where the women are the breadwinners (and consider themselves feminists), they work and do the wifework. So I'm not entirely convinced about that as a goal.

Plus as Basil said, most women now have to return to work after having children because of economic necessity

Feminism should be good for everyone.

I agree OAN, but it's always worth pointing out because it seems to me that a lot of people think it's about making life really horrid for men

Yes, it is worth pointing out. We don't want to make things worse for men. We want to make things better for women. A side-effect of this in many cases will be that things will be better for men too.

I married a feminist. I could have married his predecessor but he was a twat who thought doing the washing up equivalent to doing all the washing, cleaning, shopping and cooking.

Now we both approach housework from the point of view of doing the bare minimum. Some of us have an equal starting point because we told those who believe in anything else to fuck off.

I reckon we should teach girls that in school: how to have self worth. I will be teaching DS how to be respectful and caring. He's likely to be a feminist too.

No, you didn't Truckulent, Ecclesvat did

The MRA stuff only calls for equality, if you believe that we are living in a society where we actually have economic and social equality between women and men.

Whcih no intelligent person actually believes.

I don't really discuss MRAs, and I'm assuming you mean radical ones.
In the same way I don't use the views expressed on forums like the RadFemhub as representative of all feminist views.

The question was asked if there is a Husbandwork.

And I think the majority of men (me included at the time) think when children come along they should go out to work and provide.

Fortunately my ex had different views.