Game of Thrones

[skrumle]

does anyone watch this? i've seen bits and pieces (maybe 4 different 5-10min segments) and it seems hideously misogynistic... every scene i've seen has either had women fully naked or else exposed in some way in it, whereas only 2 have had men partially exposed (and one scene they were oiled up warriors on horses so hardly equivalent to a woman standing naked before a fully clothed man being "evaluated").

the reason i've seen some of it is because my H has been watching it and he tried to defend it claiming that it's typical HBO, no worse than early seasons of SATC, etc but i disagree completely based on what i've seen - am i wrong, should i actually watch it??

[ecclesvet]

You should watch it because (I think) it's good. There is a fair bit of female nudity, though, as well as some particularly unpleasant rape scenes.

[ChunkyPickle]

Not to mention a woman who's terribleness is emphasised by her breastfeeding her 8 year old (with specially modified gowns no less)

It's fantasy middle-ages and all that that entails.

[iklboonkey]

It's very good. There are some full frontal male nude scenes. There are more female nude scenes but the book is written about a time/place where it was misogynistic. There are some very strong female characters and male characters are often shown as being weak & stupid.

[felicitywits]

George RR Martin is a terrible, angry misogynist - lots of stories about v unsavoury goings on with young female fans too

[VivaLeBeaver]

Not seen the TV SERIEs yet but the books are fab and I don't think are misogynistic. There are weak female characters and also weak male ones. I'd say that all the strong(est) characters are female.

You've for Ceresi the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms who rules for years after her husband is killed. She may be a 2 faced bitch but she's a strong character. Even when she is arrested by the church and forced to walk naked through the town she refuses to be shamed.

Daenerys who is a Queen of sorts and mother of dragons. Raises an army and takes whole cities.

Ayra, high born daughter who refuses to sew and takes up sword fighting instead. Goes on the run for her life and travels about killing people and being as hard as nails.

Brienne - high born lady who is anything but. Dresses as a man and is about 7ft tall and kills knights. Very strong.

[PrideOfChanur]

I watched it and (mostly) enjoyed it when it was first shown - but enough of it was bang on my "ick" threshold for me to be unsure at the beginning.I found parts of it very misogynistic,and I am not sure myself whether that is fine in a realistic medieval fantasy world,or whether a modern writer shouldn't be normalising it.Haven't read the books,so don't know if that alters at all as the series progresses.
There are some strong female characters,and the bits that are all men are good....

[MillyR]

I watched the first episode and didn't watch any after that as it was so misogynistic. I looked up some reviews of it and apparently the tv series has added a lot of it that wasn't there in the original book. I read that the rape in the first episode was not a rape in the book. I thought it was very racist as well.

I don't think it is typically HBO.

[vesuvia]

iklboonkey wrote - "It's very good ... male characters are often shown as being weak & stupid."

What's good about that?

[iklboonkey]

Paraphrase much? I said (the show) is very good and some of the make characters are shown as weak and stupid..which is not always the case in these types of programmed where 'men strong. Women weak. Men good. Women stupid'.

[vesuvia]

iklboonkey, I did not change any of your words. I do not think my abbreviation of your message changed the sense of what you wrote, which to remind you was:

"It's very good. There are some full frontal male nude scenes. There are more female nude scenes but the book is written about a time/place where it was misogynistic. There are some very strong female characters and male characters are often shown as being weak & stupid."

I've added bold this time to highlight the bit I wanted you to clarify. You've clarified it now. So all's well that ends well? I was asking you to clarify part of what you actually wrote, that's all.

[iklboonkey]

Thank you vesuvia. Unfortunately, I appear to have spied my arse & jerk-reacted. I apologise for being so bloody narky. I understand what you meant now.

[vesuvia]

iklboonkey, fine, apology accepted

[iklboonkey]

wonders if it's too early for . Not myself today.
Anyway. I liked Game of Thrones but appreciate it's not everyone's cup of tea. I'd recommend watching more than one as it takes a couple of episodes to get into its stride.

[KalSkirata]

I liked it. The world it portrays is one totally dominated by men. Yet the various female characters, Cercei, Catleyn, Danearys (cant spell) and Melisandre, survive and prosper despite the patriarchal nature of the society they are born into. Considering its written by a man I reckon thats pretty good. And Martin has just set out a fantasy world based on medieval times. Thats all. Not a gender analysis.

[lisianthus]

Not my cup of tea at all. I haven't seen the show, but I've read a couple of the books, as i read a lot of medieval fantasy and usually enjoy it, but this stuff really triggered my squick reflex. It is very, very dark indeed, including a lot of really nasty stuff happening to children, and I decided I just didn't want to give it any headspace.

There are a lot better series out there IMO.

[skrumle]

thanks everyone. i'm afraid i'm still not convinced - i think "squick reflex" is a great phrase actually, and probably covers my gut reaction...

[comixminx]

It's not purely down to the medieval fantasy stuff. The author, GRRM, seems to be specifically keen on grim stuff happening all through. Yes, there are strong characters both male and female, and yes in the sort of medieval times that it is flavoured with (not exactly set in, as it's actually in a sort of parallel world) then arranged marriages, rape within marriage, sexual violence, violence in warfare that is also directed against children, etc was very prevalent. But you know - the author chose to make some of the setting different from our own earth - he chose to have seasons that are many decades long, to have some magical stuff able to happen, to have the geography and history he gave his world. Likewise the rape, violence, sexism, and racism is all part of his writing choice too. I did read them all but they left a nasty taste in the mouth and I'm not sure I will be reading the next one.

[skrumle]

i think that's kind of how i feel comixminx. and in the TV show everything seems to be happening from a male perspective as well, so whether someone is nude or clothed, weak or powerful - it's so male-gaze it's actually disconcerting...

[KalSkirata]

The TV show is dire

Come to think of it, could a male author write from a neutral perspective? Are there any fantasy or sci fi books/films where women are equal or more powerful? Writen by either gender?
Even Ann MaCaffrey the women are al subject to men, Katherine Kerr, another medieval setting, the women are wives and mothers while the men fight wars. Noble women are married off to who their fathers say etc etc

[comixminx]

Think you're painting it a bit black and white, Kal. Anne McC's gender politics are not always fantastic, especially in the earlier books, but her women aren't generally subject to men - in the Pern books the queen riders are their own bosses to a very large extent, and/or work in tandem with the bronze riders; in her more military sf books she has a fair number of women Captains and suchlike.

There's lots of very strong, well-written feminist sf that imagines worlds where women are equal or more powerful. Often it's done by imagining a world without men, of course, but certainly not always: Octavia Butler's books all have lead female characters who are as powerful as the men or more so, and even Andre Norton's rather pulpy books often have strong female characters who are as powerful as the men.

[Trills]

I would disagree that the books are misogynist.

The medieval-ish setting is of course a sexist world, but GRRM gives out positive and (mainly) negative character traits and behaviour evenly to both men and women.

[KalSkirata]

the women certainly are in Anne McCaffrey. Not so much the dragon riders but the holds people. I was pretty suprised reading it.

I do think the women in Martins books are pretty tough characters given the sort of world they live in.

[WhingingNinja]

I don't think you can base the entire thing on a few moments.

It is sexist in ad much as the laws surrounding permisable nudity allow female nakedness more freely than male

And the series is set in a medieval era where it would have been ridiculous not to have visible misogyny.

Though even with that in mind. There are many very strong female characters in the series. (i mean the books.)

[Trills]

Very good point Ninja - skrumle you are being ridiculously unreasonable to judge a work that comprises (currently) 10 hours of TV and 5 very long books based on having watched a handful of 5-10 minutes segments of the TV show.

[felicitywits]

I've read all the books.

I think the main thing for me is that Martin wrote the world. It's not medieval, there's magic! It's a fantasy world and many many fantasy worlds have been written, including feudal ones (eg the Daughter of the Empire series), which aren't misogynistic.