Do you think our 'mind your own business' culture is bad for women?

[dreamingbohemian]

I could say 'bad for people', but let's stick with women right now.

I'm perhaps hypocritical because I do tend to mind my own business and advise others to do this often, but I've been thinking lately -- I wonder if a lot of bad and painful things that women go through could be avoided or at least mitigated if there wasn't such a dominant cultural idea that everyone should mind their own.

For example, the first guy I lived with, when I was 20, turned out to be abusive and pretty psycho. After we broke up all my friends said, Oh good, I thought it was such a big mistake for you to move in with him. Now, I understand why they didn't say anything, but at the same time I can't help but think that if everyone had been honest I would have reconsidered what I was doing.

Or, I think about an acquaintance from years ago, whose live-in partner had a long-term affair -- all of their friends knew about it, even I knew about it and I barely knew her. I ended up telling her what was going on (long story) she threw the bum out and got rid of all her friends (we became great friends though!)

When I read so many threads here on MN, I wonder if a lot of heartbreak couldn't be avoided if people actually spoke up and told their friends or family what they thought or knew about their partners.

In a way, isn't 'mind your own business' a conspiracy of silence? One that cheating, abusing, lying, addicted, selfish, etc. men take advantage of to get over on women?

(disclaimer: and of course that women use to maltreat men)

But, would we like to see a world in which people didn't mind their own business? Because that could be kind of a nightmare too.

[stuffedauberginexmasdinner]

I know and have known friends in bad relationships but ime, if you say anything they will choose their dp over their DF and you will be out of the picture. I've lost a few good friends this way. Now I just mostly stay quiet.

[Dustinthewind]

How much of it is because people don't want to fall out with friends, don't want to be assertive about opinions and don't want to challenge unacceptable behaviour? Want things to be peaceful and uncomplicated, even when horrible things are happening to friends.
Don't speak up when that unacceptable behaviour towards a friend is displayed in front of them, abusive language, slave-owner expectations of obedience.
How many get defensive when their relationship is questioned?
How many of those people are women?
The majority IME.

[Dustinthewind]

Sorry, almost 30 years married and I still see women excusing, deluding themselves about and facilitating the unacceptable. And their friends accepting this as viable choices by an intelligent woman, or not wanting to challenge because it isn't their business.
Then those women raising children who have no respect or appreciation of them and putting up with that too. If you have doormat written on your forehead, people will wipe their boots on you. Unless you protest, or are given the strength to protest by others.

[Fennel]

It's a difficult question, but for me a lot of the pleasure of being a feminist is being able to tell people, in my head usually, to MYOB. Family in my case. Not to have to listen or give in to other people's expectations of how to live or how to have a relationship. So that freedom that feminism encourages is the flip side, perhaps, of people not being too involved in other people's private lives. One person's well meaning advice is another person's interference.

I agree it's hard to see a friend in a relationship that's seems bad, but even apart from my enthusiasm for people being free to make their own mistakes,
as others say, if you are too frank about telling people to ditch their useless partner you can end up quite unpopular all round. It just doesn't work as a friendship strategy. I tend to just listen and not offer too much advice.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

It's more than a conspiracy of silence. People will actively support male abusers and tell their victims they are overreacting. Lots of people rally round rapists for example, victims not so much.

[dreamingbohemian]

Oh that's a good point thunderbolts.

I get that people stay quiet because they don't want to rock the friendship -- I've done this myself.

But what if everyone was less likely to do this? So it's not that you would be the one bad friend to say the unpleasant truth, it would be coming from lots of people?

Wouldn't men be less likely to cheat if they knew their partners would probably find out, because their friends and coworkers wouldn't cover for them?

But I do take the point that feminism depends a lot on 'mind your own'. Hmm.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I see fennel's point - I do think that it is good to think 'mind your own' about the socially-sanctioned areas in which women are 'allowed' to be judged.

But otherewise, yes, I agree it's a damaging culture. I think there's the issue that women are often stereotyped as 'nags' or 'gossips', talking too much about things that they shouldn't. So 'mind your own business' already fits onto a framework of gendered connotations about communication. Men talk to each other about important things; women nag or gossip. I have rarely heard anyone tell an adult man to mind his own business, except in a jokey context. I have heard it said quite seriously and judgily to or about adult women.

I think sometimes the phrase is used to mean 'get back to your own (narrow) sphere of influence' - like that horrible 'don't you have anything more important to worry about' that people say a lot.

[Fennel]

In my life my women friends are as likely to "cheat" as the men, I think. I am not commenting on the rights or wrongs of this but it's not just the men who indulge in extra-curricular activities. I don't see it as unfeminist to keep quiet if a friend, male or female, tells me about their activities, it's not always a position I'm comfortable with but I actually do think it's not my business what other people do in terms of sexual activity.

[dreamingbohemian]

Wow LRD that's a great point. I don't think I've ever heard 'mind your own' being said to an adult man either.

Is there sort of an assumption out there that if a man is sharing his thoughts it must be important, whereas women will just twitter on about anything and it's no loss if they keep shut about things? Especially, things that get other people in 'trouble'?

Fennel, I totally agree it's not just men who cheat, etc., just exploring one aspect of this for now.

You raise a good point though, about keeping quiet if friends tell you something in confidence. It's true that if a friend told me she cheated on her husband, I would not go running to tell him right away.

But then, if she cheated on him for a long time, and expected me to act totally normally around them and cover for her, etc., I'm not sure I could keep it up. I would feel so bad for him. And I guess I think it's kind of messed up that I would be a bad friend if I told him what was going on, even though it's probably the more moral thing to do. That's only because our cultural norm is to stay out of other's people business, even if they are doing hurtful things.

[vesuvia]

"Mind your own business" supports the status quo.

The status quo is Patriarchy and it is supported by the silencing of women.

[EdithWeston]

The trouble is that the flip side of this is "judginess" which is roundly condemned. If one is exhorted regularly not to make judgements (for whatever reason) on the lives of others, then it becomes quickly unacceptable; and makes taking action so much harder.

I think this as a fairly recent phenomenon: in a more static population where everyone knew everyone else's business it was harder to hide. And any collusion would have to be deliberate.

Nowadays, in a more transient population, where individualism is celebrated and "judginess" demonised as a DM-reader trait to be avoided, collusion is more than an uncommon deliberate act; it is the default setting.

[suzikettles]

It's one thing "minding your own" when breaking bad news (of infidelity, that you think a partner is not good enough etc etc) - and that's a whole tricky issue in itself as silence surely normalises abusive behaviour.

But, the other place that people tend not to speak up is when witnessing bad behaviour - men making disparaging remarks about their partner whether they are there or not, men sexually harrassing women, men being unfaithful. If calling men (and anyone really) when you saw bad behaviour was normalised then that would surely have an affect.

If you knew that your behaviour would attract universal condemnation and disgust then surely you would modify it? The silence justifies the "it's only a laugh" status quo.

[SolidGoldStockingFilla]

A bit tricky, because it's not just bad behaviour that might be commented on. I don't want someone feeling entitled to tell me to change what I am wearing or clean up my house or stop socialising so much for the sake of my reputation, etc. Nor do I want to disclose private information to satisfy other people's nosiness. Stickybeaks can be a big problem.