What skills do today's students need to fight inequality?

[TeddyBare]

I work for a university, and I have been approached by the Women?s representative of the Students? Union with this question. They?re looking into getting speakers and workshop leaders to discuss things that will help to equalise the world they will be working in. Both male and female students are invited to attend the events, but I think they have a pretty tough time getting many male students to attend. They are asking all of the staff as well as students to contribute ideas of things which would be interesting or useful. I would like to support them because I think they do a very good job, but I haven?t got many ideas!

The only thing I could think of was some kind of workshop teaching women how to negotiate better contracts when starting jobs. There are a lot of sources which suggest that female employees accept the offer that the employer gives, while male employees are more inclined to try to bargain. There are also studies which show that women, when they do try to bargain, even when they use identical scripts to their male counterparts, are perceived to be grabby and trying to get something for nothing. I would like to have a workshop on ways which women can ask for a better deal without coming across as greedy or lazy, although I?m not sure if there is an ?expert? on this, or if it?s even possible!

[HazleNutt]

Hm this is not actually a business skill, but the thing that I think holds most women back in their careers, so maybe a workshop: "Family is not your sole responsibility!".
You see it on MN all the time - oh I have to sort out childcare, oh it's my sole responsibility to organize everything although I work more hours than DH - no, it's not. Don't try to be the perfect housewife, you can't simply get out of that role 10 years later.

[fraktious]

CV writing workshop on how your innate tendency to explain/soften won't get you jobs. There's a reason women who succeed are described in 'male' terms - its because the impression they made with their CV is a male one.

I'm not an expert but give me 5 CVs and I'll tell you which ones were written by women.

[PastGrace]

I'm not really sure if it's a skill as such, but as a (law) student I feel that a key part of fighting inequality is, perhaps unfortunately, acceptance, patience and perseverance.

Yes, lots of (for example) judges are white middle class males. Of course they are - thirty years ago they were the only people studying law. It is only really now that we should be seeing a change (75% of my course is now female).

We shouldn't have to, but I think there's a real need to "prove" ourselves. To provide justification that we aren't just getting the jobs because we are women, but because we are equal and we can. If we want it enough, my generation are the ones who can and should see a change, but it's no use saying "oh I'm a woman so I'll get priority over that man with equal qualifications" because that undermines our whole argument.

Female students need to know that they can do whatever jobs they want if they have the right qualifications, and therefor the important thing is that they prove how much they want it.

I think changes are slowly happening, but we're still just having to shout a little bit harder to be heard. I think using the "we're women, we've had it really hard in the past so everyone has to help us now" is very dangerous, and it goes against the very message that we are trying to send out, and I think that there is a slight risk that is what might be interpreted.

Sorry - that doesn't really answer your question, but I've been thinking about it a lot recently.

[Bonsoir]

PastGrace - I went to university nearly 30 years ago and my flatmate was a law student. Even in those bygone days, more than 50% of the law students at my RG university were women , with a good few students from ethnic minorities.

[Bonsoir]

Negotiation skills for women is an ace idea - most women are terrible negotiators on their own behalf (even if they show their inner lioness quite quickly when it comes to negotiating on behalf of their children). Negotiation analysis is really helpful.

[PastGrace]

Bonsoir I stand corrected . Thirty years was maybe a bit generous though - I suppose what I was trying (and failing) to say was that when the Supreme Court Judges were at university in the fifties, women wouldn't have the same opportunities - even basic things like networking with alumni would have been harder because there were fewer women.

I agree negotiation and CV work would be really helpful though. And also, without wanting to sound useless - dressing for interviews. It's really hard to know where to draw the line between looking stuffy/looking slutty - even something as silly as worrying over if you should wear a skirt or trousers. It might not matter to the interviewers, but for my friends and me it does matter and it's just something else to worry about when you're panicking about interviews as a whole.

[PastGrace]

Sorry, I realise that isn't really fighting inequality. But if you say "women and jobs" to me at the moment (or any final year students, apparently) the one topic of conversation seems to be "what do we wear for interview"

[PlumpDogPillionaire]

OK, Ted, this might sound a bit basic, but...
How about workshops or seminars of some sort that actually acquaint students with basic history of women's rights and how they had to fight for them?
It seems that this is something that isn't part of general knowledge any more, and it really, really should be.

[ChickenLickn]

Negotiating contract and salary

Negotiating homelife/childcare

How to deal with sexism in the workplace including real-life examples of success.

[ElderberrySyrup]

In order to fight inequality you first have to recognise it, so that is something they need to be taught.

I'm not sure about a very gung-ho 'Female students need to know that they can do whatever jobs they want if they have the right qualifications' approach, because actually it's not as simple as having the right qualifications. But guidance on strategy and how to overcome and work round sexism when you find it, could be useful. I'm thinking of Xenia's posts here: it is clear that she has designed her career in such a way that she is not easily victimised (eg she's self-employed, so she's not going to be passed over for promotion by a sexist boss the way she might within a firm). So while I'm not arguing for defeatism in any way, I think we need to be clear-eyed about the fact that there may be obstacles that you cannot overcome merely by being good at your job, and a bit of strategy might be useful.

This is what gets a lot of women I think - they think if they just get on with the job and do it well they will be fine, and then they discover men who are less good racing past them. So what do you do in that situation? How do you make your own opportunities when the usual channels are not providing them?

[Grumpla]

I agree that assertiveness / self esteem issues hold a lot of women back in many areas of their lives. It's not easy to stand up for yourself in work or a relationship when you've been told your whole life to consider the other person's feelings, take part rather than win etc.

A session on your rights at work? This could actually be a broader workshop aimed at all groups covered by the Equalities act e.g. Women (especially w reference to maternity rights etc) people with disabilities etc - and this might help drive up numbers of participants? "Equality in the Workplace" sort of thing?

Self-defense classes? Not just the physical aspect but focusing on trusting your instincts etc?

[EleanorRathbone]

Well, a good start would be to have a workshop for male students giving them information about the true extent of inequality and sexism and getting them to question their attitudes and assumptions.

Seeing as how they're going to be the ones continuing to promote and benefit from structural sexism.

[ElderberrySyrup]

Eleanor that is a brilliant idea.

[AlwaysWild]

Things that don't suggest that the problem is with the women students and that they should just step up, assert themselves and all will be fine. As you have pointed out yourself Teddybare, if women assert themselves like men in negotiations they are perceived differently. They aren't in control of that. To give them a workshop on how to negotiate suggests the problem is theirs and they just need to do it better. That is precisely the kind of thing that makes young women think that it's all fine and they are equal.

I'm with Eleanor, Elderberry and Plump.

Also I think young women need to know how to build relationships now which don't set them up to be shat on later in life. Don't get married to men who don't take their share of household responsibilities. Don't get caught up in doing a 'women's role' because it's a quieter life.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

How equal is the hierarchy of your university would be the first question I'd ask.

Are there an equal number of women in senior positions - senior administration, professors, heads of department? Are women thinkers, women theorists taught in the same numbers as their male counterparts.

If there aren't, you could get your female students to find out why and start agitating on behalf of the female half of the faculty and staff. That would be a good education for them.

[EleanorRathbone]

Yes FGS don't teach the women that if they don't succeed, it will be because they weren't assertive enough and if they do, it's because they're extra special and all other women are just wimps and saps and fit only to be their servants.

It doesn't really make all that much difference how women behave does it, it's how the men with power behave, that will really change things.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

Yes, it's not possible to teach women who ask for more not to come across as greedy or lazy. They aren't coming across like that any more than the men are, the reason is that people are sexist and think women don't deserve it. Of course you'll think someone who doesn't deserve rewards is greedy for wanting them.

It's the people offering the payrises or jobs who need to be taught to pay women their worth not make them pay a lack of penis penalty.

[KRITIQ]

I think alot of interesting points have already been raised on this thread, but maybe I can add a few more ideas.

I think that both young men and women can benefit from practical advice on applying for jobs, career development, bigging up their transferable skills, etc. Even in the current tough economic times, when my organisation has been inundated with applications every time we advertise a job, I've still been disappointed with the quality of many of them. Simple things like spelling mistakes, glaringly bad grammar, not following basic instructions on the form can put you out of the running even when you might have excellent experience, qualifications, skills and enthusiasm. You've got to get the attention of the employer first, and a slap dash application won't get the right kind of attention.

As others have said, the reality is that the job market and the situation when you are in most jobs isn't one involving a level playing field. Indirect, if not direct discrimination (sexual and other forms,) is entrenched, often so much so that it's taken for granted that things will be "different" for men and women, without it even being questioned. Basically, the set up is mostly pretty damned unfair and the problem with building skills without doing so in the context of that uneven playing field is setting up young women not only to fail, but to blame themselves for not being "good enough," when factors holding them back are not within their sphere of control.

So for me, I would suggest putting work in to setting that context. It's only when young women recognise the reality of discrimination that they can develop the skills to discern what is going on, to spot mechanisms of oppression and injustice, not take things at face value, but also be able to work around and within what is there to their best advantage.

Some of that is about "unlearning" many of the things they will have been conditioned to believe about themselves, about the world around them, about the world of work. But, I really think this is important - sort of building their resilience and capacity to engage with what is a patently unfair system out there while hanging onto their sense of self-worth, getting on as best they can and hopefully being part of positive changes for successive generations of women who will follow them.

I would actually suggest that some of the work be done in separate groups for young women and young men. I think young men also need to hear that message of institutionalised discrimination and need to recognise that they will benefit from unearned privilege just for being blokes. But, I think the way the message is conveyed needs to be different for young women and young men to genuinely make an impact on both. In my experience, too often when mixed gender groups are addressing issues involving sex discrimination, particularly when they don't know each other, haven't already built up a trust and rapport of some kind, is that the guys will get defensive and the women will often either feel silenced or feel sorry for the men (that's what they've been conditioned to do after all!) and reject the message. If you put them off at the outset, you probably won't get them back.

Sometimes it works to do a bit of separate work with young men and young women and then bring them together when both have "come along" in their thinking a bit. I don't know if it's possible to do that, but I would be worried that if you are talking about workshops that will involve mostly women but some young men, you could end up with the scenario I described at the end of the last paragraph, which can actually be utterly counterproductive.

[Grumpla]

In my experience, too often when mixed gender groups are addressing issues involving sex discrimination, particularly when they don't know each other, haven't already built up a trust and rapport of some kind, is that the guys will get defensive and the women will often either feel silenced or feel sorry for the men (that's what they've been conditioned to do after all!) and reject the message. If you put them off at the outset, you probably won't get them back.

My mum lectured in Women's Studies for years and this was very much her experience too - every year she would have one smartarsed bloke in the seminar who had signed up to get shagged by women prove what a "new man" he was and would end up dominating discussions etc with "Poor Menz" crap, "You think all men are rapists" etc. It was EXTREMELY frustrating!



I don't think that supporting young women and helping them the skills they need to fight inequality is mutually exclusive of fighting that inequality in other ways, nor do I think it pushes the blame for inequality onto women.

Personally I feel that having been raised by feminist parents gave me a massive advantage over many of my female peers - I see a lot of my contemporaries struggling now to negotiate their relationships with the fathers of their children after several pre-children years of "apparent" equality. Easy to think feminism is outdated if you are middle class well educated and earning & contributing the same to the household financially.

Had my DH and I not already confronted a lot of the assumptions about work, childcare, money etc in advance (because I sure as hell wasn't going to have babies until we had!) I would be struggling with that now at the same time as having a small child.

I don't think this advantage is because I am special or 'better' than a lot of other women, I think it is because my mum and dad put a lot of time and energy into giving me those skills, dissecting gender stereotypes / assumptions etc. So I think for those young women who haven't had parents like mine, it would also be useful for them.

If we are expecting them to fight inequality that means we need to show them how unequal our society still is, and equip them with the necessary survival skills!

[slug]

Grumpla, she should take Dale Spender's tack. I once went to a lecture of hers where she stated explicitly before hand that she would, in order to illustrate how girls are treated in the classroom, only take questions from women in the first instance. If men wanted to ask a question they would have to either a) ask a woman to ask it or b) wait until no more women had questions to ask.

Watching the men get more and more frustrated, resort to shouting and, in some cases, tantrums to make themselves heard was extremely funny. She simply refused to engage with the men unless they were acting in a meek and submissive fashion, i.e. like women are expected to. At the end she had a series of slides with insults men use to silence women (shrill, dyke, irrationaletc). She went through and ticked off the comments made in that session one by one. I think there was only one missing.

That, more than any academic discussion, demonstrated more to me about how we are silenced. Despite being old the rules beforehand, the sense of entitlement by the men in the room was obvious for all to see.

[TheSmallClanger]

I agree about mixed-gender groups when talking about sexism issues. I think single gender to begin with, then perhaps small mixed groups of students who know each other.

I used to work in a university and spent one year as a pastoral tutor in a Hall. I think to be really effective, there needs to be an everyday feminist presence, letting the youngest women students know it's okay for them to put themselves, their education and their future career/lifestyle first in most instances. It depressed the hell out of me to see intelligent, capable women, wasting time they should be spending on coursework and building their future support networks on cleaning up after other people, giggling at boys and their stupid behaviour and being too nice to say no to others' demands.

One of the reasons I voted to keep my Hall semi-sex segregated was that in the trial mixed corridors, the girls were doing the boys' fucking laundry, for fuck's sake.

[KRITIQ]

Oh, Dale Spender is ace! :-)

It can feel like emptying the ocean with a teaspoon, but I still believe it's worth working for those "little lightbulb moments" that can make a massive difference in a person's life and their future direction of travel.

I've been involved in alot of single gender work and have found as confidence builds, consciousnesses are raised, analytical skills are honed, young women themselves are then keen to engage more with young men to co-opt them into building solutions. It can still take quite skilled facilitation to avoid backsliding into those ghastly scenarios described above but when you see a clued-up, assertive young woman challenging sexist attitudes and behaviour of young men, and other young women, taking no shit and seeing the pennies dropping all around the room as they cotton on, it's absolutely awesome. I love my job!

[Grumpla]

Slug that does sound effective! Alas she is no longer lecturing - I will ask her about Dale Spender though, sounds really interesting!

[TeddyBare]

I think a big part of running these courses is to make the female students feel more empowered. At the moment I think there are a large number of female students who feel overwhelmed by the sheer insurmountability of sexism. Even if the seminars do not have the effect which they are intended to, I think the act of attending such a seminar will help some of my students feel more confident.

Perhaps I need to clarify my first suggestion a little. I have read an article somewhere which was saying that there are approaches women can use to negotiate which reduce the extent to which they are judged negatively. It?s shit that we need to use different tactics, but if knowing of them and taking advantage of them gives my female students a more equal start then I?m all for teaching them.

Does anyone have any tips on how to make an organisation called the Women?s Association to seem more relevant to men? Or general suggestions on how to get male students to take part in events?