Wondering out of interest if this gets a different response on here...

[hairnets]

Wondering I guess if my feminist mind has a different perception of this than those who aren't conscious feminists.. although some of these posters may be. I don't know.

here

[JosephineButler]

I've read as much of the other thread as I can bear. Totally get your point. Can I ask if your DD's father thought about this issue before deciding to take her swimming? I agree with the poster who questioned why he would want to do that if he has these ideas about other men thinking those thoughts.

[hairnets]

I'm not sure if he thought about it to be honest. I had assumed that it would go without saying that DD would change out in the open until she either developed an embarrassment of her own at some stage or when she became 8 and started to use the female changing room.

I also agree with that point.

Thanks for reassuring me that I'm not mad! Or a man bashing bitter old bitch or whatever that kind poster called me

There are actually quite a few men that I like very much.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

hair, the other thread was quite aggressive but a point I wondered about was whether your DD's feelings about enclosed spaces might actually be influenced by her dad not liking them?

It sounds as if it didn't occur to him that she should be entitled to feel as uncomfortable as he does about changing in an enclosed space - I wonder if he's actually realized that his attitude is a bit hypocritical, or if he actually doesn't recognize her fear as real, or doesn't believe it's more important than his own feelings about 'modesty'.

[hairnets]

Hmm, interesting question. I'm not sure. I think he just thinks she should do what daddy says at any cost. If she doesn't do something she is being naughty, simple as that.
He doesn't like her questioning his authority at all but I don't know if that's because she is a child or because she is female. I hope the former although I'd rather he didn't think it at all.

He could have passed on his dislike for small spaces yes.. although it's not a huge deal to him. It's only very small spaces, like cubicles or telephone baoxes,. Not lifts or anything like that. DD is also scared of pigeons and low flying birds and my ex's mother is too. I suppose children really do pick up on these things don't they.

I'm not too worried about it at the moment as it doesn't affect her greatly. There aren't many occassions where we have to be in very very small spaces really, although if she takes it through to junior school I'll look in to it.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

That's really tricky isn't it ... I know a lot of people do subscribe to the 'I am the parent, my word shall be law' school of parenting, don't they?

It must be very upsetting for you that he doesn't empathize more with her, though.

I'm sure you're right children pick up on fears - I used to be absolutely terrified of car doors for no reason I could think of - except my mum had once been really nervous the door wasn't shut properly and I must have picked up on it. I'm glad your DD isn't too affected by it, though.

[hairnets]

Thanks LRD, I think his lack of empathy may become more draining on their relationship as she gets older. Which would be a shame.

[fewcloudy]

hi hairnets

My wife doesn't swim so I always took our 2 girls swimming, from babies up till about age 10. After that they mostly went on their own or with pals (in Edinburgh you have to be age 10 to be allowed to use the pools without an adult accompanying). They're 14 and 15 now.

Granted none of us was claustrophobic (get help now btw), but TBH getting changed was never a big problem, whether it was the local authority pools (cubicles) or my own health club at the time (open changing area) I always managed to work something out. By that I mean they got changed in a cubicle with me, or in a corner/round a corner in the open areas, with me strategically placed between them and other patrons. or good use of huge towels (well all towels seem huge when you're 5!) etc, a bit like getting changed on the beach. And it certainly was NOT to hide them away from the prying eyes of evil men, it was to avoid other men's embarrasment, and we WERE in the mens changing room.

The oldest did develop an embarrasment of her own, before she was 8, and then used female changing rooms or her own cubilce, never a problem. However, I lost HOURS of my life sitting waiting for the pair of them to exit the female changing rooms, the older they got the longer it appeared to take them to get ready

For me , reading your OP, the worst thing is your ex shouting at her in public. It's more likely to put her off going swimming than solve anything.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

few, your comment about them taking ages reminds me of me and my brothers being taken swimming by my mum ... the boys would always pretend to go to change then sneak back to the pool for just one or two more rides on the slide or whatever so they were always late!

That reminds me that on the other thread, it really struck me that one poster's idea of a solution was to say that dads shouldn't be taking their DDs swimming until they were old enough to change alone. Leaving aside the issues of single parents or same-sex couples or the implication that it'd be perfectly ok for the mum to do all the swimming trips and the dad to miss out on the experience ... it just struck me that no-one brought up the alternative issue. Would a little boy in the women's changing room be an issue? Do adult women mind a five year old being there?

I can't say I ever have minded, or really noticed which sex children running around in the changing rooms even are, personally. But I would have thought there must be loads of dads with daughters and mums with sons and it's absurd if this is such a problem for them, isn't it?

[madwomanintheattic]

i posted a huge diatribe saying exactly that yesterday, and then bored myself and deleted it.

it's completely ridiculous. either dh or i would take the kids, and whoever took them got them changed until they were old enough at 8 to use their own sex changing rooms. if we both went, we generally divided them up by sex, but more for practicality than any sense of impropriety. (dd1 was always very sensible and capable of getting herself ready, dd2 and ds1 not so much. and with dd2's issues it was better to use the larger changing area in the ladies - apparently far more women are responsible for changing babies and kids than men. who knew.

the dad needs to just get a grip i think, and deal with his own insecurities without passing them on to his daughters.

it also takes ds1 several hours to appear now. i sometimes send random men in with a 'x. get your arse out here now' message.

[YankNCock]

Hi OP, I too read as much as I could take, seem to be a lot of people who didn't read carefully enough and/or can't recognise sarcasm. At least to start.

For the alternative issue, there are plenty of little naked boys in the women's changing room, especially during toddler swimming sessions. Most are age 4 and under. If there were boys older than that in the women's changing room, I might consider using the cubicle to save myself from embarrassment, but I wouldn't suggest they should be shoved in a cubicle, especially if they are afraid of small spaces.

I don't really like communal changing, even in front of other women, but that's more about my own body insecurity.

OP, I really did understand what you were trying to say. Your ex does sound like a tosser, buying into all this 'all men are paedos' nonsense while objectifying women himself.

[fewcloudy]

Yes, I too used to send random females in with (increasingly) stern messages to GET OUT NOW, lol.

LRD, the question of "would a little boy in the woman changing room be an issue" is a sad one to answer really because the answer is surely 'NO', and the fact that it appears to be an issue the other way around is a really sad reflection of the world we now live in. Whether a tiny minority (of men) have ruined it for the rest or what, I don't know.

That said, I would repeat what I said in my first post, that through my swimming days with the kids I never had a problem with changing rooms and what to do cos they were female and I'm male.

[TeiTetua]

I wondered if the ex didn't really have a problem with being in a swimming pool cubicle himself, what he worried about was being in one with his daughter while she'd be undressing. As a porn consumer, maybe he'd be ashamed at the thought that he wouldn't be able to regard her non-sexually. And the same would go for the other men--they're all a bunch of perverts, because if he is, mustn't everyone be? In fact could it be that he'd be afraid of getting in the cubicle with her and then having an erection? And then when she wouldn't do what he wanted to make the situation easy for him (change in the cubicle alone) he shouted at her. I'm not saying that he genuinely is perverted towards his daughter, just that he might know he has poor sexual boundaries and feel guilty about it when he's with the child, and try to blame her or other men or anyone but himself.

[qwerty5]

Well, there you go hairnets; you didn't get the response you wanted from the non-feminist pages, so now you have a 'the father is a porn-consumer, possibly sexually attracted to his own 5-yr old daughter' response.

Obviously a more balanced view... (actually, I think TeiTetua must surely be taking the mick)

[fewcloudy]

taking the mick, or over analyzed to a level few could comprehend...

[Trills]

Not a fair experiment.

It might get a different response in Chicken Keepers too.