Casting a feminist gaze over film and pop culture

[flippinada]

I know someone has already started a thread about Grease (wanted to acknowledge), but also would like to discuss this more generally.

What started me off thinking about this today in particular was going to see a film. I got free tickets to 50/50 which is basically a 'buddy' movie/dark comedy about a young man who gets cancer.

Now I enjoyed the film but while I was watching it, 2 things really struck me. Number 1, there is no way a film like this would ever be made with 2 female characters in the lead. Number 2, all the female characters were a)stereotypes and b)only there cos of the male characters.

This then got me on to thinking about other films/tb shows I've enjoyed. I'll pick an example - The Lion King. Now, this is a film I loved. But looking at it from a feminist perspective, the messages it gives out are just awful. For example, the men (male lions) are the ones in charge and the women (female lions). Need a man to sort them out..and again, the female characters exist only in relation the male ones.

Now this has opened a whole can of worms. I'm thinking about my favourite films and tv shows (The Simpsons and Family Guy immediately spring to mind) in a whole new light.

Anyway, I'd love to hear everybody else's ideas and thoughts about this because I find it fascinating subject to discuss.

[Trills]

This could be very interesting. Just marking my place as I have to go and do some RL.

If anyone would like to add films/books/TV shows to the Bechdel Test thread that would be lovely.

[EleanorRathbone]

I hardly ever watch TV so this is difficult for me, but one thing I did watch when it was on, was Downton Abbey.

And what I liked about that, was that the female characters are real. They exist in their own right, not just in relation to men. They have their own motivations, characters and agenda. Whether you like them or not, you can imagine them existing.

I think this is why soaps are so popular. The women in them are real, aren't they, not just adjuncts to men.

[abbeylockhart]

Oh there are sooo many examples!

There have been other threads on specific shows eg buffy, mad men, satc.

Tbh it's easier to list non-sexist tv/films because there are so few of them.

Film/ tv industry is esp mysogynistic and it's v depressing when you start seeing it evertwhere.

[flippinada]

Thank you Trills I will be sure to have a look at The Bechdel Test thread, and the Friends thread has also been recommended :)

Eleanor, I'm not a big TV watcher myself and I rarely watch soaps cos I can't bear them! My preference tends to be comedy/drama/crime...I haven't seen Downton Abbey but my mum recommended it so I'll check it out.

That reminds me of a programme I like which has a strong, complex female character that is in charge..New Tricks. She is allowed to be difficult, awkward and assertive and isn't punished. I think it's written by a man.

Comedy seems to be particularly bad for not only lack of decent female characters but actual, active misogyny.

[flippinada]

Thinking of overt misogyny in comedy..stuff like Two and a Half Men.

Subtler stuff...in The Simpsons (for example), Marge is endlessly forgiving of the most awful behaviour and always 'stands by her man'. Anything that hints at a feminist POV is made fun of/dismissed (eg Marge objecting to a Burlesque House). Oh, and Marge rarely gets to have any adventures.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

I think the soaps in particular pose an interesting area.

Over recent months, I've found myself turned off EastEnders, a former favourite of mine. A few weeks ago, they had an episode featuring a houseparty. Despite one of the characters being a former DJ, she claimed that, because she was a woman, she didn't know how to wire the speakers.

Hollyoaks, however, has been quite interesting through a feminist lens over recent months. We've had the long running rape storyline which was concluded on Friday (unless you watch at channel 4 pace - which means it's concluded tomorrow) which, in effect, challenged a few rape myths. IIRC, they worked with Rape Crisis during the storyline. Unfortunately, through attempts to be realistic, a lot of damage was done to the message the soap was trying to put across.

However, I have a new found issue with Hollyoaks after reading a recent interview with one of it's lead actresses, in which she described how, being an actress, she has a responsibility to watch her weight (she's a size eight...) Also, one of the long running storylines this year was heavily focused on a serial killer who focussed on female victims.

[EleanorRathbone]

I'm not sure that's misogyny though, I think that's the writers saying this is how it is. And that Homer is bloody awful. But I've always taken that to mean that the writers are saying that this is how lots of relationships work and it's so clearly awful that we're not supposed to think it's OK.

Or am I just assuming too much?

[EleanorRathbone]

YEs I take your point Frothy, it's just that in general, I think the soaps have been better at portraying women as real people in their own right, than many other genres have. Not that their storylines are particularly progressive or anything. (Having said that I haven't actually watched one for at least 5 years)

[flippinada]

Interesting point Eleanor about 'that's just how it is'.

You know after I posted it I thought, isn't that showing sexism, rather than misogyny - and is there a difference between the two? Perhaps that was a bad example, although I do think there are elements of sexism there.

Family Guy has some unpleasant stuff in it. Meg, for example is the butt of some really nasty jokes, mainly centred on her being unpopular and unattractive.

[flippinada]

I'm trying to think of a comedy that has good female characters that exist in their own right and aren't just there as foils for the men/cast for general hotness. The best I can think of off the top of my head is Frasier.

A more recent show that I enjoyed but which I started to dislike when I looked at it through a feminist lens/gaze (whatever you like :) ) is 'The Middle'. I noticed that the teenage daughter there is regularly the butt of humour and is treated as kind of a family 'whipping post'.

[ecclesvet]

I'm surprised that you took that away from The Lion King.

Take the main female character, Nala. As a child (cub?) she is shown as being equal to Simba, and of keeping up with him completely, e.g. both of them in the elephant graveyard.

As an adult, she is shown as one of the females who do all the work, with no reward - it's pretty clear that the lionesses are being oppressed by Scar.

[flippinada]

Hmmm...you're right about that ecclesvet. (That's a thoughtful hmmm not a sarky, pa type hmmm btw).

And it's true - you do see the female lions as oppressed by Scar (hadn't thought of it that way) - but also, why do they need a king to sort it all out, and why do the male lions have to be in charge? Very patriarchal.

[tallulah]

I'm trying to think of a comedy that has good female characters that exist in their own right and aren't just there as foils for the men/cast for general hotness.

Bit old now, but how about Roseanne? She and the two girls were very strong characters, and the men were the support.

Dinnerladies?

Ab Fab is mainly women, as are a lot of the other F&S offerings.

I don't think you can really use the Lion King as an example, since lions are in charge of the Pride and lionnesses do all the work. What got me about the Lion King is that a new male taking over the pride kills all the cubs, so Nala & Simba would have been offed anyway

[flippinada]

How the hell could I have missed dinnerladies tallulah?

Roseanne is a good'n too and, yes, AbFab.

All of this stuff is quite old though.

The 80s was a good period for female comedy, Victoria Wood and French&Saunders (for example) were great (I loved Girls on Top, anyone remember that?) but I can't imagine anything like that being commissioned now.

I accept I may be wrong about Lion King (and in fact I'll be pleased if I am cos I do really like the film) :). Isn't that handy though, that it's the men in charge? It just irks me...

[EleanorRathbone]

That Dawn French vicar thing which I never watched.

But again, old.

What recent stuff is there?

The only other programme I watch regularly is The Big Bang Theory and females in that are portrayed utterly appallingly

[sonicrainboom]

The Lion King irked me too, in many different kind of ways. For example, I don't remember the female lions fighting against Scar's take over and opression.
Check out this footage of lionesses teaming up against an invading male:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fpt2z

[flippinada]

It seems to me that all the good examples are from older stuff (another comedy I remember which was female centred..The Golden Girls, although I never really watched it).

It also seems that male characters are allowed to run the whole gamut character and appearance wise (just like normal men) but women must always, always be HOT HOT HOT. A great example of this is King of Queens.

[ecclesvet]

They didn't fight against a take-over, because there was none - with Mufasa dead, and Simba gone, Scar was next in line to the throne.

[flippinada]

I suppose my beef with the Lion King is to do with the whole set up..why does there have to be a king anyway? I get the reflecting nature argument, but isn't that handy?

I guess that film popped into my head when I was thinking of this topic because it's ostensibly a children's film, and how film/tv passes on these messages to us (in this case, men are natural leaders) from an early age.

[giyadas]

I'm suspicious of the reflecting nature argument. It only gets reflected when it upholds a male centric worldview.
Barnyard had a male cow with udders as the main character, and there have been a couple of ant films (antz was one) where male characters hugely outnumbered female ones, despite most ants being female.

[flippinada]

Thank you giyadas, that's what I was trying to get at, albeit clumsily.

[flippinada]

And SGM thanks for the tip about Mulan. I'll have to check it out.

[PattySimcox]

Not a F/WR regular but picked this up from the Grease thread.

Can I throw "The Inbetweeners" into the pot for discussion?

It has got a massive teen following and I'm not sure if teens will appreciate that the programme is parodying teen behaviour / views, or whether younger teens will see them as role models.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Exactly giyadas. Look at bee movie where they had to actually change the gender of the bees . They would rather misinform kids than have girls as protagonists.
Also lion king 2 was problematic in that it was ostensibly about the daughter but the story arc belonged to kovu who ended up ruling with her. Also the evil force was the female leader who was bitter and power hungry and naturally had to be brought down by the benevolent male leader. The trope of the power hungry female leader defeated by the compassionate male leader happens a lot (think narnia) It's as if the natural balance must be restored. The most the female can hope for is to rule alongside but never solo.