Rape fantasy

(71 Posts)
iMemoo Sun 17-Jul-11 12:34:58

I nearly name changed for this but decided not to be brave (grin)

Reading other threads on here got me wondering about this. Is it really true that quite a lot of woman sexually fantasise about being raped and if so why do they?

Being totally truthful (and this is why I nearly name changed) I have fantasised about being raped, and Dh often takes a very dominant role in the bedroom. But of course I don't really want to be raped nor do I want to be dominated by my husband. In fact in my marriage I am probably the more dominant.

I feel ashamed of my rape fantasies. In real life I find the idea abhorrent. I also feel like I am betraying every woman who has been raped and that I'm somehow belittling their feelings.

I'm really struggling to reconcile my sexual fantasies with my real life beliefs.

SardineQueen Sun 17-Jul-11 12:40:44

Rape fantasy is a fantasy that you are having, so while you are fantasising about loss of control and rape, you are actually in total control as it is your fantasy - it runs exactly as you want it to.

So in fact while it is a "rape fantasy" it is nothing actually whatsoever to do with rape.

I think that sexuality is complicated and if you're not hurting anyone (including yourself - not that I think you are - just wanted that disclaimer in!) then it's OK.

TeaspoonThief Sun 17-Jul-11 12:41:23

On a very basic level - there is a world of difference between being held down and having something nice happen and being held down and have someone do something horrible to you. Can you think of it like that?

It's hard to imagine the true forcefulness of a rape if you've not been in that situation. (I know not all rapes are violent but most of the rape fantasy ones involve force i'm guessing.)

iMemoo Sun 17-Jul-11 12:45:18

Ah I think I get it. No matter what I fantasise about I am in total control because it's in my head so of course it's completely different to the real life situation.

SardineQueen Sun 17-Jul-11 12:54:18

I think so.

Ditto acting out a sub/dom type scenario with a trusted partner is completely different to being in a non consensual or coerced situation.

So no probs there either.

FreudianSlipper Sun 17-Jul-11 13:13:56

isn't it more that we may fantasise about our partner (or whoever we are fantasising about at that time) being so overwhelmed with passion for us they can not hold back on having sex with us and us enjoying that power and the sex

rape is not about sex it is about power, control and using sex to have that power and control

i would never say i fantasize about being raped but yes of course i have though that robert downey jnr would be so taken aback with lust and attraction upon meeting me he could not help himself, but i would be having multiple orgasms too so it would be an enjoyable experience

Wecanfixit Sun 17-Jul-11 13:25:19

You should read Nancy Blacks Book all about fantasy called Black Friday it will help you understand that fantasies are just that and nothing whatsoever to be ashamed or guilty about , cos it is all in your head.

LRDTheFeministNutcase Sun 17-Jul-11 14:06:18

I think we're conditioned to think that kind of scenario is sexy. I'm not sure it'd be a common fantasy without that conditioning.

Himalaya Sun 17-Jul-11 15:51:55

LRD - I don't think conditioning is quite such a straightforward one-way process, particularly when it comes to something as private as which images and situatations we chose to store and retrieve from our personal mental Rolodex of fantasies.

with conditioning about what you wear for example, you get all kinds of feedback on what others are wearing, how people react to you etc...but with sexual fantasies it's all going on in our heads, we don't usually know what fantasies our friends and neighbours like (!) and we are not looking for approval from others just for the 'ones that work' for us.

I do think there is a kind of self-conditioning of finding our own tried and tested library of fantasies and going back to them. And then I guess there is a feedback loop for people who are trying to work out what sells --from Mills and Boon to bonkbuster to teen vampire love stories to erotic movies and stories and porn.

My guess is that women's sexual fantasies are less 'vanilla' than the 'Diet Coke Break' image of women's sexual fantasies portrayed in popular media and magazines, and are more of a 'My Secret Garden' of personal weirdness grin

Jazzicatz Sun 17-Jul-11 15:57:46

Conditioning is incredibly important in this as from what I can gather rape fantasies are a woman's number one fantasy but never a man's. That is surely therefore more than just being about sex but another example of women's subordinated role in the patriarchy!

SardineQueen Sun 17-Jul-11 17:47:48

jazzicats I guess you mean that men don't tend to fantasise about being raped?

They certainly fantasise about being in a submissive role though
And fantasise about raping if the top stories on literotica are anything to go by...

LRDTheFeministNutcase Sun 17-Jul-11 17:53:38

himalaya - I'm not convinced.

First thing is, I know exactly the same amount about my neighbour's opinion on my clothes as as I do about her opinion on my fantasies. That is, we don't discuss it beyond certain bland, socially acceptable truisms. 'That Johnny Depp, phwoar'/'You look lovely, beautiful colour'. With people I know better both get discussed a little more. I don't think they're the same, don't get me wrong, but nor are they totally different.

I don't know if some fantasies are innate, or something we're predisposed to, but I think you're underestimating how much they are socially conditioned. Fantasies do vary from culture to culture and time to time. Mills and Boon don't just churn out the same thing year on year (honest!), they realize their best-sellers go out of date. I think what we see and hear about has a huge, huge influence on what we go on to find sexy.

I seem to remember hearing a theory once that rape fantasy stems from women being taught that sex is bad and dirty, and that we shouldn't desire it if we're 'good' girls. So fantasising about rape is to fantasise about sex where you are having enjoyable sex against your will, thus removing the guilt element of wanting sex, if you see what I mean.

So it says more about socially conditioned views on women and sex than you personally.

uninspired Sun 17-Jul-11 18:05:55

Annie, I was about to post the same thing. I'm sure I remembered reading that it was about alleviating the guilt of having sex with someone that you shouldn't or performing an act that you secretly like to but daren't vocalise.

Himalaya Sun 17-Jul-11 19:11:09

LRD - I am not sure we are disagreeing so much .. Maybe it's a difference of terms - I think 'conditioning' means a passive one-way process something like dog training - is that really what you meant?

I am not arguing that sexual fantasies are' innate' but that they are cocreated by people in response to what they pick up from their culture - remembering things that turned them on, playing them and replaying them and perhaps seeking out other things stories, books, moovies to sees their fantasies.

If the patriarchy, or the tomato marketing board for that matter wanted to condition us to be turned on by tomatoes I don't think they could do it. On the otherhand I don't think anyone decided to condition a large group of teenage girls to have a thing for vampires, it was just that Stephanie Meyer stumbled on a formula that lots of people liked, and now there is a whole industry in romantic vampire fiction.

Himalaya Sun 17-Jul-11 19:13:36

' To feed their fantasies'.... Sorry IPhone kept wanting to type 'boobies' for 'movies' too!

I frequently fantasise about a fat, juicy, red beef tomato, dressed in nothing but some olive oil, rolling about on a bed of mozerella. Mmmmmmmm

grin

SardineQueen Sun 17-Jul-11 19:18:20

In Dracula it was always about women getting "under his spell" so he could hae his wicked way with them and they were powerless to resist. So pretty much all of a theme really.

Cleverything Sun 17-Jul-11 19:28:26

Apologies, I can't word this very well. I do agree that conditioning, and probably upbringing, play a part in what you fantasise about.
I think that the control-type of fantasy is a way of distancing from your partner. It's very different from mutual loving sex.

LRDTheFeministNutcase Sun 17-Jul-11 19:52:09

himalaya - ah, I understand now! You're right, I'm sure there's an element of choice. I think Caitlin Moran puts it very well when she describes how people learn to fantasize - and I also think she's right that there's a correlation between graphic portrayals of sex being available and people getting less imaginative in their fantasies.

Himalaya Sun 17-Jul-11 21:17:54

LRD - yes I was thinking about the chapter in the Caitlin Moran book - I think she got it spot on (and we are the same age so I completely relate to some the films she grew up with - maybe that's conditioning at work?)

wecanfixit - did you mean Nancy Friday? Definitely recommended reading iMemoo. Can anyone recommend any other good researchers/authors on women's sexual fantasies?

GothAnneGeddes Sun 17-Jul-11 21:33:28

I recall quite a few Nancy Friday fantasies involving dogs, so I have to wonder were the conditioning for that came from?

As for the rape fantasy, I think Freudian describes it best. Maybe it's better to describe them as 'ravish fantasies' rather then rape fantasies.

ByThePowerOfGreyskull Sun 17-Jul-11 21:40:55

I think that something that you are fantasising about means it automatically is not a rape fantasy, I agree with GAG that what you want is to be ravished, dominated but purely by wanting it it isn't rape, it is consentual because it is your choice for this to happen.

The reasons why you want this I am not sure needs analysing, I love the variety of the nancy friday books because it shows that women can love sex, love a huge variety of types and turn ons I think the word rape is scarey and a very frightening reality, but as I said I don't think this is what you want.

iMemoo Sun 17-Jul-11 21:56:41

Thanks all, lots to think about.

You are right though, what I'm fantasising about isn't rape because I do actually want it. As to why I'm fantasising about it, I guess in all honesty I am very frustrated in my sex life. I love Dh and am attracted to him but he rarely wants sex and when he does it it rather lacking in something but I can't quite put my finger on what it is that is missing.

Undefeated Mon 18-Jul-11 01:19:58

I can enjoy a good 'ravish' fantasy. I used to read Mills & Boons, and technically half of that ravishing is rape! But they are fantasies, your mind is your own.

I don't think it is a 'socialised' fantasy, perhaps the Mills & Boons exemplified certain scenarios, but I think the idea of an attractive man who is so full of lust he can't help but take you whether you want it or not (and of course you do - is anyone having rape fantasies involving a repulsive man ?) is the exciting bit. It's taboo, he is actually raping you (not realising you want it) - he must be crazy about me! And there's that 'it's so wrong but so right...' I wonder what evolutionary advantage, if any, that feeling confers?

It is tricky that it makes perfect sense in fantasy world, but is the worst kind of logic or excuse if it was a real life. But who is going to fantasize about the everyday experience?

LittleKnownPoet Tue 19-Jul-11 04:08:59

Hi OP, I'm just like you. I love DH to be dominant in the bedroom. I had rape fantasies all through my teen years. Although it was more like, some handsome stranger, rips off my clothes and I end up loving it blush.
In real life however, I am the dominant one. I am an opinionated, aggressive, crusading feminist!
I'd say fantasies are just that-fantasies. Its great to enact them with someone you trust. There is no need to feel guilty about it at all. Its very common.
I don't think its rape that we fantasise about, just giving up control to someone attractive, who we know at the back of our minds will not hurt us.

uninspired Tue 19-Jul-11 04:22:37

"giving up control to someone attractive, who we know at the back of our minds will not hurt us" is how I would choose to see it. Very different someone carrying out a brutal non-consensual act.

I read an interestic book by Brett Kahr which I found fascinating, although not exactly comforting unless you are extremely confident (I can't fully explain that, but it's a jealousy thing, wanting my lover to be only thinking of and wanting me during sex ... but that's another topic about mental infidelity, which is discussed in this book) He takes on a deep psychological investigation into the individual roots of sexual fantasies, believing them to have personal causes, e.g. pathalogical origins in childhood traumas, reinventing pain as pleasure for example. It's well worth reading. It's called
Who's been sleeping in your head:The secret world of sexual fantasies"

Well actually plenty of men do fantasize about being 'raped'. I have read and edited a lot of readers' letters and erotic fiction written by men about powerful women 'taking' them.
And there is something in the theory of women's rape fantasies being about enjoying guilt-free sex because it's done 'to' them. I wonder how much the percentage of women who fantasize in this way has changed over the past 40 years or so.

Mind you, the thing with fantasies is to accept them, own them and not worry about them. The inside of your head is a safe place, and there is nothing wrong with imagining stuff as long as you don't do things to other people that they don't want you to do. Trying to repress your own fantasies or being horrified and ashamed of them tends to make you miserable to no purpose.

Pendeen Fri 22-Jul-11 15:31:01

I don't think Stephanie Meyer stumbmed on (i.e. 'invented') anything, she probably watched too many Hammer horror films.

The "powerless in the steely gaze of the dominating man / vampire" concept has been around for well over a hundred years of popular fiction and film. The 'industry' has always been there and very successful too.

Blethermouse Fri 22-Jul-11 23:49:23

My own feeling on this is that I think its fine to think any fantasies in your head but I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing that rape/ravish fantasy with a male sexual partner who could take those experiences on into other relationships/ area of his life.

Horrorshow Sun 13-Oct-13 01:20:03

Apologies for resurrecting a dead thread, I came here to get some insight into this particular subject and feel I can shed some light on it potentially.

I know that for some women the idea of being raped or sexually assaulted is tied into the idea that the person carrying out the assault is motivated by his/her inability to resist the victim. The idea being that the victim is literally SO sexually attractive that the attacker cannot resist and 'must have them now'. To my mind that speaks of a 'kind' of empowerment and feeling sexually attractive.

What people want to fantasize about in their own heads it totally up to them and I think if someone is fantasicing about a situation where they are dominated then of course it is concensual as it is happening in their head.

The idea that the 'victim' in the scenario has a power because the other person can't stop themselves is I think a very sad lie which may well be used in real life to attempt to excuse rape.

garlicvampire Sun 13-Oct-13 13:59:58

Always a good topic; don't apologise! I agree the fantasy's all about 'uncontrollable desire' for you, which is nothing to do with real rape ... and also that it has deep roots in social conditioning. Even today, women are still 'supposed' to be sexual gatekeepers - our choice to 'allow' sex is meant to be a calm, deliberate decision, unlike men who are 'supposed' to be frantic to stick their wick at any opportunity. Throughout all of history, obviously, it was actually wrong for a woman to want sex. So, if a woman feels like sex, she needs to be relieved of the tremendous responsibility attached to it. Hence fantasies of being 'ravished' outside her control, but by a lover and in a way that she enjoys.

Not surprising that a woman in a sexually moribund relationship would have these fantasies: she's acknowledging her desire, and imagining being wanted more urgently than she is in real life.

About this time last year, I experimented with a fantasy in which I 'rape' a younger man. It's good grin

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 13-Oct-13 20:46:11

Ok, I know that this is an old thread. But someone on here (I think) made a point a while back that I think is relevant.

There is no such thing as a rape fantasy.

Imagining a rape would mean imaging being attacked (by a stranger, or a trusted partner, or whoever) in a situation where you did not consent, are terrified, possibly in great physical pain....

The point of a 'rape' fantasy might be being swept away, or ravaged. But you are enjoying it. You want it to be happening. Even if the man has simply picked you up and carried you from the bar to a darkened alley, in your own mind you are consenting. You aren't fantasising about rape. It is something else entirely.

YoniMatopoeia Mon 14-Oct-13 22:54:26

Yy to some element of it being about 'good girls don't want sex'. So the ravishing/rape fantasy absolves you of that guilt.

coldwinter Mon 14-Oct-13 23:04:55

Yes there is no such thing as a rape fantasy, I agree.

But I think the fantasy of being ravaged, is common. And I think it comes from patriarchy. Patriarchy socialises us to see sex aka PIV, as men dominating women. We are sold this idea everywhere - films, books, TV.

Fantasising about being ravaged is simply a way of eroticising inequality and oppression. And we are taught to eroticise that. It is a very clever way to get us to accept the inequality and oppression as "natural".

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 01:00:50

simply a way of eroticising inequality and oppression. And we are taught to eroticise that.

Ever tried explaining to a 50Shades fan, why it's wrong?
Crappy writing aside, you're the unstoppable force getting battered on an immovable object!

... I like my revised fantasies grin You should try it!

BerstieSpotts Tue 15-Oct-13 09:38:39

I think as well that it's more acceptable for a woman to admit she has a "rape fantasy" because she's not fantasising about doing anything. If a man said he had a rape fantasy, he would quite rightly be castigated as a potential rapist.

A woman who has a rape fantasy can't go out and invite someone to rape her, because rape doesn't work like that.

A man who has a rape fantasy can quite easily go out and rape someone. Rape works exactly like that.

coldwinter Tue 15-Oct-13 09:41:14

Garlic - Many people reject feminist arguments, it doesn't mean they aren't worth making. Fantasise about what you want, but don't pretend they aren't influenced by patriarchy.

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 17:16:09

Eh, cold? confused

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 17:18:33

Berstie - I've been slapped down for relaying this before, but a police expert told me that men who have intense rape fantasies almost always go on to commit sex crimes. As a red flag, it's right up there with "I don't want you think I'm a rapist or anything."

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 17:20:25

... indirect connection: this is why they take collections of illegal pictures very seriously.

coldwinter Tue 15-Oct-13 17:21:32

Have I misunderstood you garlic?

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 17:24:13

Quite possibly grin

Anniegetyourgun Tue 15-Oct-13 17:44:41

I did try commenting adversely on Fifty Shades to a fan recently. I said IMO Mr Gray sounds like a dick. She said "Are you mad?" (Actually, I think he sounds really ghastly, but if I said that her jaw might have dropped off.)

coldwinter Tue 15-Oct-13 17:46:44

He sounds a total abuser

BerstieSpotts Tue 15-Oct-13 18:08:08

How to put this without sounding totally perverted and weird blush

If you've ever had a particular fantasy or taste for something sexual, and you can't act it out at that particular time, perhaps because you don't have a likeminded partner for example, it can become quite enthralling and obsessive. You will keep coming back to the same subject and feel fascinated by it. There is some kind of drive, a curiosity that is never satisfied until you do it (and then you want to do it again). Sexuality is weird, people have fetishes for all sorts of bizarre things.

If this fantasy is in the realm of "totally impossible" then usually it isn't an issue, because you know that there's no way it would ever happen.

If it's in the realm of "fairly tame" or "unusual but possible to find a willing partner" then, eventually, you find some way of satisfying this desire and all is good.

If it's in the realm of "harmful to others" then I would imagine the knowledge that it's possible would eat away at you. Knowing that you could but you shouldn't. I think it is sadly inevitable that anybody with a sexual preference for something which is harmful to others will end up acting it out at some point, whether they justify it to themselves with some kind of twisted logic or they pretend it doesn't matter or they try to cover up the evidence sad and some (most?) are psychopaths and don't care.

It's horrible. I'm not saying BTW that rapists/murderers/paedophiles etc get a free pass, not at all. It's still ALWAYS a choice to act on a fantasy. It just makes me wonder what the hell is screwed up in our brains that a fantasy can take over someone to such an extent that they justify hurting someone for the sake of a sexual impulse.

Or maybe a psychopathic personality is more likely to develop this kind of fantasy, who knows?! Partner rape isn't usually an isolated thing, is it - there will be other forms of abuse and/or control in a relationship. Although that's not rape based on a fantasy but more about a form of power. Total stream of consciousness there, sorry blush

grimbletart Tue 15-Oct-13 19:45:18

Am I unusual in feeling uncomfortable about this thread? Yes, it's fantasy. Yes it's not real. But it sure as hell feeds into the idea of some misguided men and women that "no" really means "yes".

Or maybe I am just baffled because I don't/haven't had rape fantasies. I find the idea of dominant men the ultimate turn-off (also dominant women in case anyone thinks I like them any better) grin

BerstieSpotts Tue 15-Oct-13 19:51:25

I don't think so grim, because I think the thread has pretty much denounced any ideas that a so-called "rape fantasy" actually relates to the real life concept of rape, from the victim's side anyway.

Many other places which claim it's common or where I've seen discussions about it before are far less clear on this, which I agree is worrying/problematic.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 15-Oct-13 20:44:36

I agree. I have seen discussions on 'rape fantasies' which don't even address the central point that the women aren't fantasising about rape! And I think the other discussion has been sensible and intelligent too.

I don't really 'get' dominance either TBH. Mind you, most of my fantasies these days involve enormous beds with clean white sheets and massive pillows where I may sleep for 18 hours straight.

BerstieSpotts Tue 15-Oct-13 20:45:25

I like the idea of dominance mainly because it means I get to lie there and not put much effort in grin <lazy>

BerstieSpotts Tue 15-Oct-13 20:46:13

But I must agree, I've never had anything nearly approaching a rape fantasy. I don't know that "common" equals "most" though - it can just mean a sizeable minority.

garlicvampire Tue 15-Oct-13 20:56:17

I used to have some fantasies that I thought were the product of a warped mind, until I found out they're actually staple rudefilm fodder. I'm not wanting to ferret around my unconscious mind looking for the original source <scary thought> but do want to share this: In the spirit of experimentation, I've tried revisiting those fantasies to see what happened. What actually does happen is that I start ranting (in fantasy) about how degrading to women it all is, and why the other participants should think about what they're doing!

On this basis, I'm in favour of a re-education programme for women. No clue as to how you'd go about that, though.

NeoFaust Fri 18-Oct-13 15:52:03

My girlfriend has asked me several times to take the role of a man who kidnapped her and forced her into sexual servitude. She requests dominant scenarios and is the second girl in my life to request breath-games. I should clarify that none of these were at my suggestion or instigation - while my tastes run to dominant sex I am extremely careful that my lovers do not feel pressure to conform to my own sexuality.

She also wants me to jump out and surprise her when she is otherwise unprepared for sex, but when she is in the mood for sex. That one she's not going to get, because I can see it going horribly wrong too easily.

There's nothing wrong with any fantasy as long as it stays either within your own head or between consenting adults.

garlicvampire Fri 18-Oct-13 16:29:37

That one she's not going to get, because I can see it going horribly wrong too easily.

Very wise!

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 20-Oct-13 09:32:38

This is an interesting thread. I do think Annie and SGB nailed it - it's about the idea that women are conditioned to think of themselves as gatekeepers, to think of sex as dirty, to think that "nice girls don't give it away". So for some women, the only way to fantasize about wild abandoned sex is to have "rape" or more accurately ravishment (if that's a word) fantasies. The reason this doesn't do it for me is I can't get myself out of the man's head in the scenario - if it's rape, then he's an evil tosser, and evil tossers can't be heroes, therefore figure as the sexually attractive hero in my fantasy life (if that makes sense). But as women we're taught to go in for a lot of cognitive dissonance, so I suspect in rape fantasies that's part of what's going on - the woman not only is not fantasizing about a real rape, but also is carefully not thinking about what the scenario would mean about the mindset of the male protagonist.

(Which isn't to say I don't have fantasies in which circumstances mean that both of you know you shouldn't, but the sexual urge is so great that you both get mutually carried away, knowing the other one wants it every bit as much as you do... in fact, as I have mentioned before in FWR, my guilty not-so-secret passtime is reading and writing erotic fanfic blush).

DadWasHere Sun 20-Oct-13 12:27:56

"I have seen discussions on 'rape fantasies' which don't even address the central point that the women aren't fantasising about rape!"

So what's it about then, what's the hook- a women simply surrendering herself to someone? I don't think its anywhere near that clean, I had a girlfriend (briefly, thank god) who was far too keen on having her mind changed about wanting sex, that was the hook that got her off. No means no- except it excites me if you work hard to change my mind. It confused me initially and later pissed me off and repelled me.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 20-Oct-13 12:49:09

Dad - sorry to hear that, that would seriously creep me out (I can't quite imagine what the analogous situation for a woman to be in would be, but I hope I've got enough empathy to be able to see that that would be very upsetting). But, at the same time (and I hope this doesn't come across as minimising - it really isn't meant to be) - it was you, a man she was in a relationship, she was explore these fantasies with, and they culminated in a "yes" - albeit a very twisted, screwed up one.

But I think you're right that it's not as clear cut as all that. I really don't understand it. Every so often I come across a story written by someone like your ex, and I hit the back button pretty damn fast, while thinking "WTAF?" to myself. There are some women who aren't just fantasizing about the Byronic hero they've wanted all along but can't say yes to without (in their own confused assessment of the situation) slut shaming themselves. But there seem to be asmall minority who genuinely seem to get their kicks out of non-consensual sex, and it is really, really disturbing (it had crossed my mind to wonder if these particular stories were written by hairy handed gentlemen trolling what they know to be a predominantly female environment, but your experience makes me think they may actually sometimes be written by women).

TheDoctrineOfSpike Mon 21-Oct-13 13:26:20

I would read that fantasy as "prove how desirable I am, prove you really want me" - but I could be wrong.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 13:48:09

DadWasHere - My point about there being no such thing as a rape fantasy linked back to my earlier post on the same point.

In a rape, a woman is not consenting to sex. She does not want it to be happening to her.

In a fantasy, a woman wants what is happening to be happening. She may be fantasising about being overpowered, or ravaged, or whatever else. She may fantasise about a man 'forcing her to change her mind'. But ultimately, in her fantasy she wants it to be happening. She is not being penetrated against her will. Even if in her fantasy she is struggling and being held down, in her own mind she is getting a kick out of what is happening. Ergo she isn't fantasising about rape, but about some other form of dominant role playing or similar.

garlicvampire Mon 21-Oct-13 14:39:16

Even if in her fantasy she is struggling and being held down, in her own mind she is getting a kick out of what is happening.

Apologies for introducing a slightly darker tone to this. In real rape situations, it's not uncommon for a female victim to lubricate, and some even orgasm. This doesn't mean she wants it or is enjoying it. They are physiological reactions. (Women can have a physical orgasm without feeling pleasure: something many have experienced, but is rarely acknowledged.) I'm wondering whether the neurological pathways that trigger this - obviously ancient ones, probably pre-mammalian - actually generate the fantasy in some way. If so, it could be a means of aligning the obsolete pattern with newer and more conscious ones: an integration, if you like, of our 'new' brain's expectations of pleasurable, consensual sex, with the old brain's expectation of unchosen penetration.

As far as I'm aware this hasn't been researched; I doubt it could even be done. I'm just going with an idea.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 16:48:27

Yes, that is pretty dark isn't in garlic, though it's an interesting point.

My point was a lot more basic - that if it's a 'fantasy' you are actively getting off on the idea, and therefore inherently consenting. If you weren't, you wouldn't be having a 'fantasy' you'd be having some form of waking nightmare.

DadWasHere Mon 21-Oct-13 22:05:50

I would read that fantasy as "prove how desirable I am, prove you really want me" - but I could be wrong.

Interesting observation but I think my own situation slid down more toward 'prove I am so desirable you would rape me if I don’t surrender to you.... but dont do it if I wont' At least that was my view of it, perhaps if I was a more sexually aggressive person your spin would ring truer to me than mine but I think both versions are on the same slope, and it seems mighty slippery to me.

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 23:05:35

I would say that it's more "prove you can be so sexy to me that I cannot resist you even if I'm really trying/didn't want it in the first place."

That would be my interpretation anyway. I think the way you've interpreted it is much darker but obviously could also be correct.

Either way it's not a fantasy about actual rape.

DadWasHere Tue 22-Oct-13 00:28:17

I would say that it's more "prove you can be so sexy to me that I cannot resist you even if I'm really trying/didn't want it in the first place."

No, there was an early time I thought it was more or less like what you describe, but no. I think what you write is a fairly healthy fantasy/attitude, though it might wear thin unless the fantasy could adapt to your partner getting older. I could live long term with a women who thought as you say, because what women does not want their man to seem sexy to them? On the other hand if I encountered even a whiff of what I went through back then (were I single) the door could not close on my arse fast enough I would be gone so fast.

DadWasHere Tue 22-Oct-13 00:30:19

Damn I keep transposing woman and women... I seriously need to grammar check.

secretinme Tue 22-Oct-13 20:06:41

<name change because I don't want this following me> Also - TRIGGER WARNING!!!

I'm a woman who has actual rape fantasies, but it is something I am extremely ashamed of, and believe it comes from a very unhealthy part of me. The 'fantasy' is also more like a repetitive reliving/re-enacting? process (I have PTSD). I don't feel good going there mentally, but I get something approaching psychological relief afterward.

I was repeatedly abused/raped growing up, and it seems to have fused all sorts of strange feelings together in my mind, and leaves me with a permanently anxious feeling of 'waiting for the next time'.

Only now that I'm grown, there is no next time. So the feeling just grows and becomes more obsessive until I can kind of trick myself into believing I've just been abused, usually by a combination of self-harm and imagining a realistic scenario (sometimes even memories from the past). I hate this part of my life, I hate this part of me, but its like its the only way to trip my inner switch from 'imminent danger' to 'no immediate danger - relax'.

garlicvampire Tue 22-Oct-13 21:41:17

Secret, I'm going off on a tangent here, but I couldn't let your post pass. I used to have this about violence: it rarely connected with sexual feelings (though sometimes) but was very much about the amount of physical pain I was required to tolerate as a child. Until my mid-forties, I would mentally enact torture situations before going to sleep. Very similar psychological process going on.

This area is one of the very few that was helped with CBT. I imagine you've had your 'thought-stopping' training, as you're clearly aware of the thought processes involved, but just wanted you to know it can work. I ended up replacing the torture scenes with luffly thoughts, first by using hypnotherapy tapes; now with meditation. Every so often, I have to remind myself I've no further need for superhuman pain tolerance, but it's now less than once a week and only for a minute.

I posted upthread that I've replaced my 'rape fantasies', too. I don't think they meant the same to me as to you - but the pain thing, I suspect, did.

Wishing you good luck with this for yourself smile

VeloWoman Wed 23-Oct-13 01:36:26

I just wanted to follow up on what secret and garlic said, it was only after my rape that I started having 'rape' fantasies, although of course the way it happened in my mind was very different to real life. My counsellor told me that it is very normal for victims of rape and sexual assault to go through this process.

It's as though by fantasising about being dominated in a way that you want by someone you want to be with, you are getting back a feeling of control over what happens to you. And women shouldn't be ashamed if they have these thoughts IMO (although if they are distressing or make you want to hurt yourself of course you should seek support to deal with the,), it's never going to mean that you 'wanted it'.

Of course that's all very different to flashbacks of your actual trauma that make you feel like you want to vomit.

Just wanted to add another perspective as to why some women may fantasise about being ravished for want of a better word.

alexandrafarrow Thu 24-Oct-13 08:56:11

VeloWoman - your post makes perfect sense to me and makes me feel less ashamed.

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