Is the Child Free movement anti-feminist?

[GothAnneGeddes]

Not sure how to word this, but while I absolutely agree that there is nothing wrong with not wanting children, this whole idea of a movement (with a lot of men in it) that seems to despise mothers and children with a visceral repulsion and also encourage women to remove their reproductive organs is very unsettling.

What do you think?

[blackcurrants]

I think in theory, it would say it isn't. I've never encountered a child-free space (online) which didn't swiftly devolve into a bunch of 'mummy-issues' and women hating, though. It always makes me profoundly uncomfortable.
I've seen strident child-free arguments along the lines of "I shouldn't have to hear your child wailling/see you change a nappy in a train car- you CHOSE to have children, therefore you should putup with never travelling on my train, etc" - and such arguments are effectively silenced by "Yes, people choose to have children but no-one chooses to be a child. We are ALL children, for a time, and children deserve to be able to take public transit, or have their nappies changed rather than sit in shit." They're always blaming the women for having kids and then daring to try to have a life. This is because even Child-Free people don't, on their public faces, attack the children themselves.

I know some child-free couples, and one had the nerve to tell me that babies shouldn't be allowed on planes. I said "Oh? And what about parents of babies who have to travel across large bodies of land or water? How do you suggest they do that in a short space of time? Are you fucking SERIOUS?" ... they backed down pretty quickly in the face of my rage, but.... argh!

Bitch, PhD used to say that if you're anti-child, you're de facto anti-woman, because of the way society places so much of the expectations about child rearing onto the mother. Certainly spaces where children aren't welcome also become spaces where women with children don't go.

[GothAnneGeddes]

I love Bitch PhD's writing on this! I miss her blogging.

I work with children and I'm very interested in the concept of Child rights anyway and it makes me very angry that dislike of children is passed of as feminist, when IME, it's anything but.

[mathanxiety]

I agree with Blackcurrant's observations. I think there is a lot of material there for the therapist's couch. Methinks some people have Mother Issues.

[mathanxiety]

And may I say those who are 'child free by choice' who inflict their damn pets on others need a size 15 boot to the rear end.

[karmakameleon]

I agree with much of what blackcurrants says. I've only once been on a child free forum and it was hateful, really nasty stuff.

However, I do think that women who don't want children get quite a rough ride. I've never been 100% sure and DH and I have delayed for several years. We are trying now, but tbh I don't think I'd be that upset if it didn't happen for us. Maybe slightly relieved.

I find the comments I get quite difficult and I think DH does too. Lots of people are quite intrusive with their questioning and frankly rude. People like to share their thoughts on when we should start a family (soon obv) despite our clear discomfort. I am quite blunt with people but DH tries to be polite so unusually he bears the brunt of this.

The general view point is that stable hetereosexual couples must have children. Any that those who don't because they don't want to (rather than because they can't) are a little strange. I think that a proper child free movement needs to counteract this rather vilify mothers as it currently seems to do.

[DontdoitKatie]

I'd agree that the child free stuff I've come across is highly misogynistic and has a subtext of mother-hating.

I also don't get the point of constructing your identity around not having children. It's not like there's much to say "Got up today, didn't have a child to look after or think about, so I did stuff in my own life". Being a parent in large part is an activity, hence people talk about its ins and outs and how they manage - being child free (by choice) isn't.

I didn't know about them encouraging women to remove their reproductive organs. Rock on female castration.

[DontdoitKatie]

Actually why am I saying subtext? It's blatantly mother-hating.

I also agree that people who dont' like or want to exclude children, also don't like and want to exclude mothers.

[blackcurrants]

Yes indeed. And it's a real shame that the Child-Free movement is such a toxic dump of evil, because actually, I think women who don't want children deserve and need support to resist patriarchal expectation, etc. Two of my best friends don't want kids, have never wanted kids, will never want kids - and are lovely to my baby DS, and were so thrilled for me when he was born, etc etc. I have respected them enough to never do "oh you'll want one, yes you will, one day!" and "just you wait!" and "Clock's ticking!" and all the crap that I'm sure people do.

I know they are under pressure to have kids, or at least say they want them - and it appalls me. I've always wanted kids, and so it makes absolute sense to me that someone would be 'always know' they haven't. -So I have heard about the frustrations of people who want to be childfree, and I try really hard to stamp on people who voice sexist nonsense about all women secretly wanting kids, or just needing the right man, or whatever.

I respect women's choices, and support any woman's choice to not have children. It's just a shame that the 'movement' supposedly doing this supporting does so by being so vile to mothers and children, and pandering to patriarchal hatred of women rather than exposing the 'all heteros must breed, women are not people until they have a baby' narrative for the patriarchal spew that it is.

[karmakameleon]

Agree blackcurrants, all comes down to women being a vehicle for reproduction.

Although I get comments of the "biological clock" and "you'll change your mind" type, I think DH's are worse. They seem to centre mainly on how I must be getting broody now and how unfair it is of him to stop me having a family that I must dearly want by virtue of being a woman. It's hard for him to hear when he primarily the one who wants kids.

Dontdoitkatie, not saying it's right but I think a lot of the hate stems from the fact that it is easier to justify not having children if you can say you don't like them. For me my childlessness almost always is brought up when I have just had a positive interaction with someone else's child. People seem to find it really hard to understand that I like/play with/enjoy other people's children but not especially want one of my own. It would probably never be an issue if just went for the "take them away from me, they are noisy and annoying and I'd rather not have anything to do with them" approach. Obviously any offer to babysit is simply my repressed broodiness struggling to come out and we should have one of our own immediately.

[garlicbutter]

What karma said. The interference, boundary-trampling and downright insulting assumptions are just as bad as when you're pregnant (which I have been) - and it goes on all the time. I have been massively annoyed by baby-pokers, too, while wheeling other people's infants around. I get that the boundary problem is a feminist one. But I sometimes think women who are normal enough to have DCs are comfortably clueless about what a persistent background noise this is for us abnormal ones!

As well as all the tactless, invasive comments, there's a form of social exclusion. When I have kids with me, the world is a warmer & softer place - I notice this much more in Latin countries, but it's the same everywhere. Since this also goes for being coupled-up (I'm divorced), I have some sympathy with those who swerve towards anger/resentment. Social exclusion is pretty unpleasant, and not very well masked ime.

Those 'childfree' forums are weird; they look very much to me like gatherings of the mentally ill, in the same way as anorexic forums. But please don't assume it's all about woman-hating. From where I sit, the woman with no children or male partner has quite a few reasons to feel angry.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

There seems to be a conspiracy of silence (in the UK - can't speak for other countries) surrounding the whole business of having/not having children.

Most couples keep it to themselves when they are ttc; or if they aren't, prefer not to talk about the issue and often find it intrusive if people ask about it. Likewise, the general secrecy about an early pregnancy (supposedly in case of mc) and if a mc does occur, that tends to be kept largely secret too.

Why is it all so taboo, somehow? Is it because the patriarchy values women for their reproductive ability (while denigrating mothers) so there's a strange sense of shame in admitting an unwillingness to procreate or a failed attempt to do so?

After all, there seems to be this "you're a real man now" attitude to someone who's proved he can sire a child.

(One male friend commented to DH "they can swim!" after we announced I was pg.
Also, DH playfully beat his chest and said in a faux deep voice "I impregnate women" - being ironic, I hasten to add - but it made me laugh because he was so near the mark in terms of a prevailing social attitude towards fatherhood).

[FreudianSlipOnACrown]

I admit I know next to nothing about this child free movement thing (I do remember MN references to some awful child free forum though) - but the first thing I always think when I hear of it is wondering how they are expecting the human race to continue?!

Or am I missing something?

[FreudianSlipOnACrown]

(I mean the whole child free movement, not the individuals who choose not to have a child)

[Straight2Extremes]

I thought it was just a movement for people who don't want kids but hate the stigma that comes with that decision. If anything in the worlds point of view it is probably a good thing there are people who don't want kids.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

If it was just that (and I have no problem with the idea of a group for the happy, child-free by choice people) why the overly contemptuous attitude towards children and their mothers?

Choosing not to go forth and multiply is one thing, but describing children as "cunt nuggets" and "womb splats" is at best distasteful and worst misogynistic.

[garlicbutter]

IC - why the overly contemptuous attitude towards children and their mothers?
What I was trying to explain is that I can understand people getting angry & resentful about the stigma. Those forums are barking, definitely! But the stigma & exclusion are actually real.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Yep, GB, I accept that some feel they are being stigmatised because they are childless (and may actually be) and it's fine to feel angry and resentful about it.
But that doesn't excuse the misogynistic language being used to express those feelings.
(I don't think we're really disagreeing on that point, are we?)

[garlicbutter]

No, we're not :) I think they sound mentally ill. In itself, that isn't a feminist issue (though the reasons behind it might be, as with anorexia). So I say "leave 'em to it."
They have their reasons for hating mothers and/or being a woman and/or hating children but I don't see it as a political problem except in the wider sense of "how did they get that way?"

IYSWIM?

[LovelyOakDresser]

I think the childfree movement is anything but anti-feminist. As far as I can see it is about people supporting each other in a lifestyle choice that is incredibly unpopular in mainstream society.

I think the majority of people allied with childfree groups are women as they are the people most stigmatised by their choice so possibly need the most validation. Women who openly don't want children are often regarded with disgust/contempt/curiosity or suspicion (often much, much more so than men), as demonstrated by some of the attitudes on here, so it makes sense they find support with a 'movement', much like feminists, eh?

The expectation that all women should have or want children is a huge feminist issue and challenging the notion that all women are maternal (and the expectations of care/drudgery that go with it) is definately NOT anti-feminist.

Some of the language referenced here is pretty disgusting but unless you've questioned every childfree person to check whether they approve/use such language it's a case of tarring everyone with the same brush. I would also add that a lot of criticism is levelled at mothers by the childfree, not because they are misogynists but because 9/10 times it will a mother, rather than a father who is 'letting' her child run around Tesco or screech in a cafe so rather than hating mothers specifically it may be they are hating the attending parent which will most likely be a women as the fathers are doing "more important" things That women are primary carers is another feminist issue raised, but not caused by, the childfree forums.

Before you ask, I'm not saying all this as a childfree person, I'm 8months pg but I recognise it is hard living in a society where 95% of the population will take their lives in a very different direction from yours and it's anything but 'mentally ill' to want to contact the few who feel the same as you and who are sick of things like parents leaving work early to watch kid's plays and babies and toddlers in pubs etc.

I'm sure all ^ will get picked apart but I think my main point is that while some childfree individuals may be hate-filled and misogynistic, the movement as a whole seems to me to be support for people, especially women, going against the grain and that is anything but anti-feminst.

But anyone who calls my baby a cunt-maggot will get poked in the eye...

[HerBEggs]

"it's anything but 'mentally ill' to want to contact the few who feel the same as you"

But that's the thing - that's not what the child free fora are about, is it?

Can anyone point me to just ONE child-free forum that isn't filled with mysogynist hate-speak?

I really don't know what "attitudes" you are referring to on here LovelyOakDresser. The mentally ill comment was not referring to every child-free person, it was quite clearly referring to the sort of mad regular posters who go on some of those hate-filled sites and spew bile about fat pregnant bitches. The majority of posts here have quite clearly stated that they support women's lifestyle choices to be childfree if they so desire and that they find it disgraceful that childless women are so harrassed. The attitudes towards childless/ childfree women here are about a million times more supportive and respectful, than the attitudes displayed towards mothers on most child free sites.

[sakura]

Definitely anti-feminist.

THe idea that children are a lifestyle choice is male-speak for saying that society shouldn't have to shell out for children. In their eyes it doesn't take a village to raise a child, the onus is on the individual woman, even if men have designed society to make sure mothers are as poor as possible, while men get rich just by paper shuffling.

Add to that, men as a group are suffering from a severe case of womb-envy, and telling women not to reproduce is just another manifestation of patriarchy. China has been forcing women not to reproduce for years, pretending it's about the economy . But it7s not. It's about states (and men) controlling women's reproductive powers.

Others countries, such as America and Ireland, make it compulsory for women to reproduce by not providing free and accessible abortions and contraception.

It's all such a male POV. The female childless women that I know don't begrudge supporting other women's children, either financially through taxes, or even personally, by loving other women's children.

THis is definitely a male movement.

[sakura]

I love love LOVE Germaine Greer's writing on mothers.

Greer is childless by the way. Most of the best feminists- those who love mothers the most- have been, and are, childless.

"It may be that the persecution of mothers is a permanent feature of patriarchal societies, but ...contempt for the mother seems to have assumed a new dimension"

"The lives of single mothers consist of love and work which are their own rewards. For this loyal, unsparing labour there is no recognition, no promotion, no security, no help. Whatever we may think about the ideologies of different feminisms we must see that a feminism that does not address this situation is ostrich feminism"

"Women's liberation must be mothers' liberation or it is nothing."

"Population control, even if it did not deliver women into the power of the pharmaceutical multi-nationals, is not the right answer to the need for child support all over the world.
We will be told that technology no longer requires a vast labour force, that these children are a product that is not marketable, and that money spent on them simply perpetuates the problem of too many mouths to feed, in other words, that the children of poor women should not have been born.

Feminism has to believe that a technology that cannot feed its people is worse than useless.
We do not exist to serve technology; technology exists to serve us.

"With modern technology nobody needs to die of the diseas of malnutrition any more; every year untold millions of people do just that. We could distribute food rationally from places of plenty to places of scarcity; we don't. We could provide everyone on earth with clean water; we don't.
We could use our standing armies and billions of pounds worth of materiel to protect people against the consequences of natural disaster; we don't.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

YY^ Germaine.