Can I come over here for an intelligent conversation please?

[MarionCole]

I wonder sometimes why I bother with the rest of MN.

[ForkfulOfEasterEgg]

Yes - sure!

(Pedicures are not compulsorary here! Not that I stalked your last post oh no )

[JacksSnoryStory]

[MarionCole]

I went to bed too.

It was a combination of the pedicure thread and the 'feminists are frightening' bollocks.

[tethersegg]

I like trees.

Do you like trees?





(I'm sure someone will be along in a minute)

[thumbbunny]

wassa pedicure then?
(joking, I do know, although I've never had one)

some feminists can be a bit scary, especially if you're not as well up on all feminist issues as they are, honest.

But not all of them!

[thumbbunny]

I like trees, tethersegg. Especially willow trees.

[MarionCole]

I like oak trees, they're my favourite.

[MarionCole]

I'm far from up on all the feminist issues and I only contribute to the board very occasionally, but I have never felt frightened; I think you're all lovely.

[blackcurrants]

We are all very lovely here. What frightens me is the amount of cognitive dissonance required by some women for them to live their daily lives thinking "lalalaaaa, no sexism here!" despite all evidence to the contrary.

I think what actually frightens them is the idea that if they give up all their denial about how sexist the world is, they'll have to face the fact that around half of the humans on the planet think women are inferior to men, and even actively hate them. Who'd want to give up that cosy world where everyone likes women and there's no sexism, even if it's a dream?

[thumbbunny]

I am a feminist. I know I am, but I have in the past fallen prey to the stereotyping of radical feminists and thought "I'm not one of those!". I like this board, even if I do fear getting a flaming if I put out a naive opinion, and I'm learning lots of stuff from it.
But I do shave my legs and pits.

[MarionCole]

Did anyone see Victoria Coren on Frank Skinner's show last week? I would be interested in the thoughts of those more learned than myself.

She was asked whether she considered the "women and children first" approach to be sexist, she said "no, it's just gallantry". In the next breath she said that she aspired to be a "good feminist", to which I thought: well, you're some way off.

I find the holding the door open / letting women sit down first approach deeply undermining and designed to keep women in their place. DH feels that a lot of women like the status quo (as you suggest blackcurrants).

[MarionCole]

And now I have to go out to take DS to a dance party which he says is going to be boring.

[LadyOfTheManor]

I agree that a lot of women have been conditioned to "accept" and even "crave" the feeling of being taken care of. I have never liked that, even before I was a feminist, but I do indeed believe that it is a case of ignorance. I was very much "la la la no sexism here". Until I opened my eyes. Yes it's fucking terrifying how much of it we're surrounded by. I find it almost amusing how many "feminist bashing" threads there are atm.

[thumbbunny]

Well I guess that makes me still a poor feminist then, Marion because I find people holding doors open for me (men AND women) to be good manners, and I do the same for others. I don't really like people letting the door swing shut in my face.
People opening car doors for me, partners holding doors for me and ushering me through first, seating me and pushing my chair in and then sitting themselves - that's all bollocks though. Can't stand that.

Can you reconstrue 'women and children first' in a non-sexist manner? I wouldn't call it gallantry either, more "survival of the species" instinct - after all, children are the future generation and women produce more children - but then again it could be just sexist too.

Didn't see Vic Coren, btw - am in Australia (land of the chauvinist) and can't work i-player without complicated shenanigans with proxy IP addresses and stuff.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

I'm with thumb re door-holding etc. I do it for people - no matter what their gender or age - because I think it's common courtesy. I would hope they would do the same for me.
If such things are done in a "little lady" patronising manner, well that's different.

[MarionCole]

Sorry, didn't explain myself properly. I completely agree that holding doors open for people is polite and I will always hold the door open for people and expect people to do it for me, whether they are male or female. I don't expect a man to hold the door open for me because I'm a woman.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Makes sense to me!

[AyeRobot]

MarionCole, I saw Victoria Coren on Frank Skinner and was a bit as well. She made some excellent points, such as saying that middle class women moving into the workplace was a form of social mobility in response to the Willetts thing, but then she came out with some right humdingers like the gallantry thing. I think I actually gasped at that.

I always hold doors open for people. And say thank you when they do the same for me. Regardless of sex. That's just polite, isn't it? I can't count the amount of times I have heard men say that some women have kicked up a stink because they have held the door open for them. I either don't believe them or imagine that they mimed laying down their cape.

[thumbbunny]

AyeRobot - I have seen it happen - a man held the door open for a woman and had a right go at him, telling him she was perfectly capable of opening the door for herself, thank you very much, and what did he think he was doing? He looked so embarrassed and I bet he never held the door open for a woman again.

Marion - that makes sense to me too.

[mamarara]

Sticking my two pennies in...
I think part if the issue with grown women living in denial about every day sexism is the whole princess phenomenon in childhood. Girls are basically taught to be pretty and wait to be rescued by a man. I am pretty sure this victim mentality remains in the sub conscious of adult women. Because this has been drummed into them since before they could talk they can't even see the sexism that pervades every day life. In fact they actively seek princely behaviour in men because this reinforces their beliefs.

[tougholdbird]

I find it easy to give my DD strong messages, and to help her avoid the 'princess mentality' mentioned by mamarara, but I find it harder to articulate a clear message for my 9 yr old DS on feminism. Welcome any help or ideas on this.

[blackcurrants]

tougholdbird this is something weighing heavily on my mind too - even though DS is quite new, I am conscious of how we model gender equity to him. Why not start your own thread (so I can lurk there picking up tips :) ) for more ideas?

[tougholdbird]

blackcurrants I've never dared start a thread. Perhaps it's time.

[mamarara]

tougholdbird no idea how you approach feminism with a 9 year old boy! I have a 16 month old DD so pretty easy for me to ban all things pink and girly. My nephew is 9 though and I was dismayed to hear him playing with his friends - all the same insults remain from when I was a kid. Any behaviour deemed unacceptable was immediately referred to a 'girly' or 'gay'.

I personally feel it is unacceptable for girls to play princess and it is equally unacceptable for boys to attribute insults based around femininity and homosexuality to perceived inferiority/weakness.

This is where I think society is inherently sexist and unless we get rid of the patriarchy we can never truely address these issues.

Sorry that's not very helpful is it?