Why are society's restrictions on men's appearance never mentioned?

[Cattleprod]

I've seen and participated in a number of discussions over the past year or so, on mumsnet and real life, which have focussed on stereotypical expectations of womens and girls appearance based on gender. The overwhelming sea of pink in girls clothes shops, shaving/waxing various body parts, 'princess' type slogans, cosmetic surgery, length of skirts, high heels, styles of underwear, that sort of thing.

The point always comes up that it is unfair that so much value and judgement is placed on a woman's physical appearance, and of course it is terrible that anybody should be judged on physical or aesthetic aspects that they haven't chosen themselves, or have had forced on them by situation or society.

But it got me thinking, that although a lot of the unwritten expectations related to appearance, and the perhaps more sinister ones (eg. she was wearing a short skirt so was asking to be molested) relate to women, far more of the overt expectations, those that invite comment and even punishment, that I have come across have been applied to men and boys.

From the rule at my school that a boy's hair must not reach his collar, to the expectation in many offices that a man must wear a suit and tie, have short hair and be clean shaven, to my little boy being laughed at when I put a plain clip in his hair to keep it out of his eyes. Men just aren't as free to look different from 'the norm'. Any man that ventures out in a skirt, or lipstick, high heels, a pashmina etc. is likely to be met with incredulous stares and unpleasant comments, and in extreme cases, violence. Yet these are things that we as women can wear freely, safe in the knowledge that we can also choose to wear traditional mens clothing largely without derogotary comments (as Sandi Toksvig and many other women often do).

So, aside from obviously wanting to stamp out appearance-based prejudice that still exists as mentioned above, does there not seem to be the space or inclination for us as women to celebrate the fact that we do generally have more freedom than men to dress as we wish? I know there are boundaries set by religion, occupation, local society etc., but it is always the negative aspects of the spectrum of female appearance choices that are discussed, never the positive.

[HipposGoBeserk]

I think for me the difference lies in the fact that the clothing men are 'expected' to wear is comfortable, practical, modest and long lasting. The clothes that women are often 'expected' to wear are skimpy, uncomfortable, impractical and flimsy.

You are right that women are free to wear mens clothing without overt ridicule or violence, but we still get judged harshly for 'not making an effort'.

[Cattleprod]

I can't remember a situation where I've been expected to wear something skimpy, except perhaps the dance shows I did as a teenager.

However, being forced to shave every single day and have an awful haircut (personal hatred for short hair!) and risk being beaten up if I went out in something sparkly - that would really bother me.

[thumbwitch]

I see what you are saying, cattleprod. And restrictions do matter when they prevent men from entering some establishments, such as nightclubs or social clubs, even some restaurants.

I judge men who cba to make any effort, who go out in sports gear when they have obviously never done any exercise in their life, when the only time they'd wear a suit is in court, but that's just me. I like to see men dress up appropriately for the occasion's requirements.

Men are judged by the length of their hair - grown men who have long hair and who aren't musicians (or French footballers) are often viewed with suspicion and derision.

I doubt pretty men are ignored - but they could be abused for being "a pansy" or looking like a girl, even to the point of being beaten up.

[carminaburana]

I agree with you op; in fact I said pretty much the same thing on the 'resisting femininity' thread a few weeks ago - men are expected to 'conform' just as much as women - even more so imo - ( my opinions were cast aside as irrelevant - never really found out why )

[JaneS]

There was some discussion of men's beards on the 'resisting femininity' thread.

I think men don't have to walk anything like such a fine line.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Cultural norms when it comes to clothes and the attendant gender stereotyping are often ridiculously and unnecessarily restrictive IMO.

But they can also be dangerous.

High heels not only prevent women from being able to run (and easily escape someone, for example); force them to walk in an unnatural manner, overly emphasising hip movements etc.... but also, accidents in high heels can actually maim a woman for life in some cases. But that's okay - they make your legs look longer and more slender

I live in Spain where the office culture is resolutely suit and tie for men. Although many offices are air conditioned, you still see all these guys sweating in temperatures that touch the early 40s sometimes. The women wear cool dresses and use their fans.

But, although uncomfortable in the heat, in most cases, the men in those suits are unlikely to be maimed by their clothing.

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

I don't think it's true that the restrictions on men are never discussed and it is definitely not true that we never discuss the positive aspects of female appearance choices: there are quite a number of references on the resisting femininity threads to the creative side of it, the self-expression and the enjoyment we derive from certain aspects of it; have a look at StayFrosty's posts in particular.

we don't tend to discuss it as much here because, well, we are women, we find certain things particularly burdensome or problematic so we talk about it. It is not a competition as to whether something is worse for men or women: we are women so we talk about the stuff that impacts on us. A discussion forum on masculinity would have its own priorities too.

And people all over Mumsnet rant all the time about the 'little monster' t-shirts that often seem to be al that's available for boys. I think there is actually a widespread acknowledgement that these things are a problem. But it is a problem that men will have to solve: as women it is not for us to tell men what issues are important for them, any more than it is up to us to take the lead in solving them. If men want to have an open (and not woman-blaming) discussion about women's role in sustaining the restrictions on men that would be something I would like to take part in.

[Cattleprod]

Unless they got their tie caught in the paper shredder....

How many women have felt pressure to wear high heels then? Is it the norm in an office? I've never worked in one. As I said before, I've only ever had one pair and have never felt any expectations to wear them. Have I just been lucky?

[Blackduck]

oh seth - good post.... Also agree with Hippos (fab name!), it is the degree of the restrictions. And if men don't like it, it is a battle they can have.. (dp seems largely unbothered by it all - although he's not in a suit/tie environment)

[K999]

I work in an office. Absolutely no pressure to wear heels, skirts or anything skimpy! Some days I wear skirts and heels, some days wear trousers and flats .

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Nope, I've never been a wearer of high heels either. I would regard it as a cultural "norm", but not an expectation on women. So luckily we do have the choice to avoid the dangers of high heels, in most cases.

But I wonder about the existence of such things at all.... Who invented them and why? And why do so many women choose to wear them?

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

my dad caught his fringe in a glasscutting machine. He stopped having a fringe after that.

and my grandad set fire to his coat in the 1950s when he didn't put his pipe out properly - that definitely counts as a dangers of compulsory masculinity thing, doesn't it?

[colditz]

I have never felt any pressure to wear something I find uncomfortable. my clothes can be as practical or as pretty as I want them to be.

And I personally feel, in jeans, top and ballet shoes, that my clothes are very practical today - comfortable and unobtrusive. i would be wearing cowboy boots if it was cold or wet (mega comfy!!!)

I could sent an eight year old girl out in a plain unisex white t shirt, checked shirt, converse and blue jeans - comfortable, practical, nobody would notice.
Whereas if I sent my son out to play in leggings, ballet pumps and a pink tunic top, - comfortable, practical - he'd probably come home with no friends and a black eye.

And that's not fair!

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

Carmina - the clue was in the OP and the title - it was a thread about resisiting compulsory feminity, not about who has it worse, men or women. If your opinions were treated as irrelevent that is probably why. HTH.

[HipposGoBeserk]

Cattleprod Wed 06-Apr-11 09:12:59
"I can't remember a situation where I've been expected to wear something skimpy..."

I can. Every time I go to the pool or the beach. My husband chucks on his baggy board shorts and... he's ready.

I, on the other hand, am supposed to wear a figure hugging, cut away, lycra suit which reveals every lump, bump and crevice (!) and obliges me to shave off half my pubic hair for goodness sake! And I'm talking about a very staid suit from M&S.

[Cattleprod]

I often wonder why heels evolved to be a feminine item, when it's the men who are so obsessed with being tall, and so embarrassed if they are a bit on the short side. I suppose they have creepy cuban heels but they only add an inch or so.....

[TeddyMcardle]

My brother got a lot of stick at school for his style, he's now in Brighton and right at home Certainly in my area if boys aren't in sportswear they are referred to as 'gay' and will have a tough time of it. That is unfair.

[JaneS]

I love high heels and do wear them, but it doesn't stop me thinking it's really crap that some shops expect their female assistants (who're standing for hours, remember) to wear heels as part of their dress code.

I don't think loving clothes, shoes, etc. is the issue here. The issue, to me, is that I feel as a woman, how I dress has a huge impact on the way in which I will be treated. I know some people love that and love that they can dress in a way that performs different identities for them.

I agree with seth in principle that there's no reason not to be interested in society's restrictions on men's clothing, but I do think men often have it easier. It could be the area I'm in, but I've seen maybe one woman who doesn't get negative comments on her appearance - the others are all either criticized for being overly interested in clothes (therefore, superficial/air-headed), or for being 'dowdy' or 'frumpy'. I just don't think men come up for the same flack, though this may be because I'm thinking of a very male-dominated area.

[TeddyMcardle]

Gin? No that should be obviously, he's not a gin drinker to my knowledge my first post on the feminist boards as well...

[Cattleprod]

You're right Hippos.

But on the positive side, you can choose from a whole range of different styles of swimwear, bikinis, one-pieces, tankinis, boy-shorts, board shorts and bikini top etc. Should your husband wish to veer from the board-short norm and wear, for example a mankini or pair of budgie-smugglers, he'd probably be laughed out of the pool. Plus he's expected to swim topless even if he has moobs (not saying that he has), while you are spared the embarrassment of having your whole top half naked in public.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

It's okay, Teddy. I think there should be a gin emoticon, anyway

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

that's a really interesting question Cattleprod.

my guess would be two things:

1. because heels don't just make you taller, there are all the other things they do, like making it harder for you to run (footbinding analogy etc) and changing the way you hold your body. Men presumably did not want to pay the price of being unable to walk comfortably, whereas that was something men did want to inflict on women (I won't go into it here but Mary Daly is very good on this, and there is a whole chapter on feet in Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys).
   

the making you taller is a bonus but they're not all that heels are about by any means.

1. men had many other ways to achieve power to make up for being short. I can think of quite a few short working class men I have known who made themselves very muscly and strong, and professional men who made lots of money. And having lots of money lessens the pain of shortness quite a bit, I suspect, even if shortness makes it marginally harder for you to do so.
   

this is an interesting thread.

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

rofl @ gin, I thought you were hinting everyone in Brighton swans around drinking gin, which seems sort of believable

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Nice high heels analysis, seth - that makes a lot of sense to me.