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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Women in Leadership

21 replies

Unrulysun · 14/03/2011 18:54

So following me opening my big fat gob making some constructive remarks at a recent conference I attended which featured some input on this subject I now get to participate in some further events.

I had a preliminary discussion today with the organiser today where we discussed running two sessions - one about leadership and family/maternity issues which are apparently in demand (I'm a bit ambivalent about this as it seems to equate women with caregiving but practically if women are concerned about this I suppose it's necessary in the society we live in :( ) and one on issues of women in leadership more generally - in particular around recruitment and securing a leadership role.

I wanted to open up a conversation here about how we see barriers to women's success in leadership roles and what women themselves might be able to practically do about them (in the absence of the patriarchy being dismantled by May :) )?

Any thoughts?

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nestypirate · 15/03/2011 00:09

I watch with interst to see what answers you get here. I'm a bit short of ideas myself.

I think the idea of giving other women a leg up and having flexibility in the workplace. Not taking the mickey when flexibility is given, and always making sure that you pull your weight.

Barriers to women's success? Some unenlightened and cowardly blokes, im my experience.(" I've nothing against her - she's a very nice girl - she's just not a good pirate...." Mock compliments. Not putting up with serial low key bullying when witnessing it, but standing up to it. Especially when you are not the victim. Not condoning any kind of sexism at all, but with humour - tricky that one. Having a few stock phrases for various situations that diffuse tension but show that such comments are sexist. (Bit like racism, really).

Having a log memory and not forgetting who is a closet sexist but is being nice to you cos you now hold some influence (must remember to namechange soon..)

Looking forward to more on this.

Just for starters.

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nestypirate · 15/03/2011 00:10

That would be a "long" memory - not a memory for favourite logs!

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snowmama · 15/03/2011 07:48

1.Obvious, but still true, female role models in leadership - visible both to the organisation and visible in the public sphere in general

  1. Diversity it types of women being recruited...those did the straight career path, took time out , tool flexible working route....a real ethos around quality if work not just face time

3 A real definable path to success via the flexible working route...ie it will Leon take x years longer to get there, but if you hit these objectives...leadership roles are a viable option
  1. Diversity of networking groups...our company ie brilliant at this you don't need to be a hard drinking, golfer to network...there is just about every interest group you can imagine
  2. An acknowledgment that peoples criteria for success/personal demands in life will be wider than just work and flexiblity to manage this..


I am sure there is loads more...
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nestypirate · 17/03/2011 18:43

bumo - I want to hear lots of views on this very interesting topic.....

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SuchProspects · 18/03/2011 06:41

Differences between "acceptable" leadership styles for men and women, and how to challenge that.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 18/03/2011 11:48

Ooh I have a "barrier". Men who insist on employing women as their assistants/in immediately junior roles and then will never promote them because it would mean they were left having to find a new helpmeet. This happens, IMO, a LOT.

Also, underlying assumptions e.g. a group of men in suits talking to each other = probably business. A group of women in smart work clothes talking to each other = probably "gossip" about babies or shoes or something. Women who want to do well often seem to shy away from being seen talking to other women :(

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Snapespeare · 18/03/2011 12:29

women who do not have children denying there is sexism, as they have managed to break the glass ceiling. I have had unofficial Hmm feedback that I didn't get a job, as I am a single parent with caring responsibilities and the assumption was that I would not be able to put in the hours. I refuse to limit myself because of the DC's, but other people have very strange assumptions. the vacancy holder was a woman.

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Treats · 18/03/2011 14:35

In my experience, the people who get ahead are the ones who've got their eyes on the bigger picture - who can see where the organisation is moving to, what their bosses are currently worried about and how their organisation is affected by the external environment. For themselves, they're always looking for the opportunities that their existing role gives them to move on to the next one.

The people who don't get ahead are the ones who concern themselves with what needs doing here and now, who focus on getting this job done and don't think about the next one. Who look back over what they've done before rather than forward to what they could do next. They're tactical and operational rather than strategic.

For all sorts of reasons - historical, cultural, social, educational, etc. - the former are more likely to be men and women are more likely to be the latter. Both types of people are valuable to an organisation, but only the first type are really leadership material.

So, if I could give one piece of advice to an ambitious woman starting out now, it wouldn't be "Work hard and always do your best", it would be "Understand what your boss REALLY needs and be the one to deliver it".

Incidentally, this is why time in the pub and on the golf course pays dividends - this is where you get to find this stuff out. Traditionally this excludes women of course, either because they need to get home to the children or because they don't play golf.

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Unrulysun · 18/03/2011 17:09

Thank-you - lots of very good stuff here, particularly barriers. Any solutions?

I like 'find out what your boss wants and be the one to provide it'. I also think the leadership styles thing is huge in my sector because people don't think women will be tough enough to be the leader who drives change or who takes on the really difficult people we deal with.

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SardineQueen · 18/03/2011 19:46

That is a very interesting post treats, thank you for posting it Smile

food for thought.

Sorry I have nothing to add unrulysun I am shit at "getting ahead"!

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Watersign76 · 18/03/2011 23:32

Sounds good.

Not sure how well this fits with feminism (pls don't flame) but something also about developing "your brand". I don't mean your clothes/appearance, but what you are known for.

Part of a senior role is being externally focused/raising your profile. In my sector I have noticed that many conference programmes, people that comment on blogs, use LinkedIn a lot and those that attend networking events are men...It is rather depressing.

For me the answer is to force myself to do these things. I have also used an exec coach who was great and helped me decide to be proactive about these things.

Hope the planning goes well.

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Treats · 19/03/2011 09:17

Agree Watersign. I'm rubbish at that too, but it definitely helps in your organisation if you're seen to be someone of influence/expertise/importance in your sector. This then means that clients want to buy 'you' which massively increases your value to your employer.

I always assumed I didn't have enough expertise on anything to be really that interesting, but i've observed how little expertise you really need - just a desire to be known for it.

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mdavza · 19/03/2011 19:39

Not sure if this is relevant, but I'm now in a position in our school where they are asking those interested in leadership positions to make it known to the heads. I'm very intereted, as I feel I have loads of excellent, creative ideas and I have proved many times now that I do a good job.
What stands in my way is that I'm actually scared of my colleagues' reactions - I hesitate because I don't want to seem too pushy or ambitious. I know, I know, sounds crap but there you have it.
Analysing the situation I've discovered how many ideas I adhere to that are coloured by my acceptance of women's caring, supportive role in society. I think this is a factor with many women.

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Unrulysun · 19/03/2011 20:48

That's hugely relevant mdavza. Especially in a sector where traditionally women do the caring nurturing bit (teaching) which is the main point and men do the managing/leading.

Is it an internal or external leadership programme in your school? Can we help you find the confidence to step up? Grin

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tribpot · 19/03/2011 21:30

I think mdavza is quite right, for many women it feels that ambition and a desire to be liked by colleagues are at odds with each other. It doesn't have to be so, and mdavza I would definitely encourage you to pursue your ambitions! Managing staff that you are friends with can be hard, and I've done it in some particularly difficult circumstances but managed fairly and sympathetically, with maturity on both sides, it can definitely be done. My biggest management successes have come from being willing to make the tough decision and to deal with the consequences, you don't ^haveT to be liked by the people you manage but you do have to be respected by them (and respect them in turn).

It's been said that women tend to look at a job ad and think if they hit 9 out of the 10 mandatory competencies it's not worth going for, whereas men will tend to think "9 out 10 is pretty good" - a huge generalisation of course but if people are holding themselves back, a good one to bear in mind.

Networking is vital, I think - people have to know who you are. And this facilitates a two-way flow - of information, help, and ultimately influence. And trust plays a big part as well - in a previous job, my boss asked me to do demos of a product to the board of our client. Not because I was an expert, far from it, but because I wouldn't lie. If a board member asked 'does it do such-and-such' I wouldn't say 'oh yes, it can' (as certain product experts had done previously, meaning it could be amended to do it with extra expenditure) but would present the truth as positively as possible. Seek out a mentor, ask for coaching in the skills you need to move into a leadership role.

In terms of a session on family issues, I can understand your ambivalence, Unrulysun, in that it plays into the stereotype that childcare is a woman's responsibility. In my old team, we had 5 people working part-time hours to accommodate childcare - 4 are men. That's how it gets challenged. There's also something about how technology can make it easier for us (all of us!) to balance work and life better.

And I think confidence has a massive part to play as well. You have ambition? Good. Use it. You want to work three days a week? Good. Find a solution that works for that. You want both? Good. Make it happen. I entirely accept that this will not always be possible, where unless you can pull in a 60 hour week you just won't be considered for promotion, but workplaces are evolving and will continue to do so.

The other thing I'd add (and I realise I'm on my soapbox now) is that no-one should feel pressured to act like "one of the boys" if they work - as I do - in a predominantly male environment. I'm quite happy to put up with some gentle teasing - and give plenty back in return - but everyone knows where the line is, for everyone. Not just me as a woman in a team of guys but as a team with lots of things to wind each other up about. Again, it's all about respect.

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SuchProspects · 19/03/2011 21:37

mdvaza - "I hesitate because I don't want to seem too pushy or ambitious."

Please, please put yourself forward. Because you are ambitious. That is really great! Who'd want a leader who didn't want to lead? Who didn't think they had good ideas? How miserable would that be?

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snowmama · 20/03/2011 08:42

So many good points that I wish I had known in my twenties...agree with treats post about approach to work and all the other good points on networking, finding a mentor (really key), brand management...partly image but also 'what are you known for/what is your unique selling point' be proactive and make flexible working work for you if that is what you want... and all other good points.

I also think that threads like this are important, it has taken me 16 years to learn these points..how can we share knowledge and learning ?

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mdavza · 23/03/2011 21:04

Hi there, thank you all so much for the encouragement - I have decided to go for the internal leadership programme. I'm new at this school and haven't made friends yet as such, we just get along quite well in our faculty, and I know the Head likes me (networking, networking). I offered to be the Union rep for one of the big unions - nobody else wanted the job! - and last week, faced with an issue, I said to one of my colleagues that I feel out of my depth, never having done this before. She told me I've done more in the position in the few week's that I've been doing it, than all the others in the previous years. So that made me feel good. To be honest, I love the challenge! The woman who is in charge of the other big union has just been appointed as President of her Union, which is quite an achievement here in Scotland! - and she is very encouraging. I can see her becoming a mentor.

I find all the tips and soapbox - operas very informative. I guess in school we don't use the fancy terminology, but it boils down to the same principles. In my council, there is not a single female headteacher, in any of the secondary schools. Loads of Deputies (or Deputes, as it's called here) and I wonder why...

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/03/2011 13:53

That's SO GREAT mdavza - it sounds like you've got a lot of ideas and ambition, please keep on putting yourself up for promotions etc. You sound ace.

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mdavza · 26/03/2011 12:11

Gee, Elephants, you're making me blush! Blush

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everythingchangeseverything · 26/03/2011 22:12

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