Feminist views on only children.

[OverThinkGal]

Hello feminist MNers - I am a lurker on this section and I wondered if some of you ladies could give me a femimist perspective on only child families:

Society's judgement of mothers with only one child. I guess this is a subset of society's judgement of mothers and women?

I do not want acquaintances/family to tell me that I am selfish etc - especially when it is my DH who does not want a second.

What is a strong robust answer to such intrusive questions?

The relationship dynamic wrt to choosing to have more DC. EG - two yes votes = a DC (apart from a woman can overrule a man once a DC conceived) and one no = no DC.

I feel like I have given up a lot to have DC and have ended up with just the chance to have 1.

The relevant background thread is here.

[MillyR]

I think it is up to you to decide what will make you happier, having more children and staying in the relationship or leaving and having more children either as a single parent or in a different relationship.

If two people are going to live together as a family unit then they either have to come to an agreement they can both live with happily or the relationship will come to an end.

[HerBeX]

I think the problem with your question is that it has 2 issues:

1. What's the strong robust answer to such intrusive questions
   

and

1. From what you have said in your thread, you're not feeling strong and robust about it, because it's not your decision.
   

So trying to do 1. is false for you, which I think is why you may be having problems responding to those intrusive questions.

You could of course surprise and embarrass them by saying "Well actually, it's DH who has put a veto on my fertility - I'd love to have another child, but he doesn't want one. Go and have a word with him if you feel so strongly about it."

And of course they won't, because people don't feel the same right to challenge men on their fertility decisions as they do women.

Viz the actual problem, I think you need to sort out in your own mind how important it is for you to ahve another child and if it is important, whether that is more important than the family unit you have now.

[JBellingham]

Robust Abswer - "What the fuck has it got to do with you?"

[JBellingham]

*Answer

[Takver]

I think HerBex has a good point.

As a mother of an only child (feminist or not), my answer to someone saying I am selfish would be a polite version of 'get stuffed'.

But if the issue is that you & your partner disagree on whether to have another child, then that complicates things greatly.

I'm not 100% sure that this is a feminist issue - maybe I am wrong? I think it is more to do with people's fears and uncertainties about their own sibling dynamics and those they see between their children - it is so important to them that they have done the 'right' thing by having/being one of multiples that they feel the need to judge those who have made a different choice. (Of course, ironically, a great many of those who have only one child haven't done so by choice but by medical necessity.)

[Bue]

I think it's only a feminist issue in the sense that women who choose a family structure outside of the typical 2- (or sometimes 3-) child family are usually judged for it.

I'm sorry you're unhappy with your current situation and I wish I had some wise words for you.

[HerBeX]

I think the feminist issue thingy comes in re who controls a woman's fertility?

Her, her husband or both of them as a couple?

And how does that impact on his fertility?

And given that there is no such thing as 100% reliable contraception, what would your DH do if you got pregnant? Would he want you to have an abortion even though he knows you want another child? Would he believe you got pregnant "deliberately" and if so, how would that affect his feelings about you and your relationships?

I think there are lots of feminist questions around this issue. Unfortunately, I don't have the answers to any of them.

[im22]

in response to HerBeX above I would like to say that although you have a point that there are feminist issues in play here, they are not the only ones, and not the only ones that are relevant.

You equate the husbands decision not to want more children to controlling his wifes' fertility, not to controlling his own fertility.

I realise this might not be popular, especially as your post completely ignores it, but a male has the same right to exercise some control over whether or not he has children as women do

[skirt]

Oh my lord, isnt the only answer none of your business Why try to put forward an argument whatsoever, the issue is your lack of confidence (or agreement) with you and your partners decison.

[HerBeX]

im22, firstly I refer you to the part of my post which said:

"And how does that impact on his fertility?"

And secondly, men are not operating in a society which has used their sexuality and their fertility to control them for centuries. Women are.

I'm aware that there are not jsut feminist issues here, but that's what the OP asked about specifically.

[im22]

HerBeX, you point out that you were answering the OP's question specifically, so explain the relevence of "men are not operating in a society which has used their sexuality and their fertility to control them for centuries. Women are." Are you honestly saying that because womens fertility was used to control them for centuries, that this now justifies a woman controlling a mans fertility (btw, i think reproductive rights is a better term the context of our discussion).

If you wish to invoke wider factors into this discussion (womens/mens fertility right) then I would point out that, although womens reproductive rights might very well have been used to control them for centuries, in the world we currently live in (and therefore the one relevant) women now have far more reproductive rights than men. Pre-conception is the only point at which a male has any control over his reproductive rights, and therefore a male who does not wish to have more children is right to say so to his wife, rather than conceal the fact and begrudge and resent his wife/future child for getting pregnant/being born.

I apologise to OP for this post as I realise it is absolutely ignoring the question and provides her no help (although as I type this, I note that the resentment issue and how good a father/husband your DH would be to an unwanted child might in some form help with her dilemma)

[HerBeX]

"Are you honestly saying that because womens fertility was used to control them for centuries, that this now justifies a woman controlling a mans fertility "

No.

As for the womb envy, I'm too tired to argue about it now, am going to bed. Will possibly be back tomorrow to argue about it. Good night.

[SuchProspects]

OverThinkgal - I see a couple of other things from the post you link to. 1) Contraception choices - you say you're thinking of getting sterilized. But it's DH that doesn't want children and vasectomies are less serious operations and more reversible. Why isn't he getting the snip? On the face of it, he seems to have stated his decision on fertility but expects you to be responsible for ensuring the outcome. I'd not be at all happy about that. 2) You have feelings of inadequacy at not providing DS a sibling. I'd like to say "Don't" but I know that's not helpful. You are taking on responsibility with this that isn't yours. And buying into the whole "perfect" mother thing, which is one way society seems to be making women today feel rubbish about themselves. Why do you think it is incumbent on you to give him a sibling? Being a mother is not about making your child's life fit some ideal. Can you see a way to celebrating the life and love you have created as miraculous and fantastic and brilliant (which it is) without thinking it is somehow not enough? I don't mean that you shouldn't want another child, just that you should want it for you, as more. Not for DS because you somehow haven't done a good enough job yet.

On what seems to be the real issue - you and DH having different opinions on another child, I am even less help. I can't see a good alternative to deciding whether one child with DH is better than trying for another elsewhere (and if you're pondering this you should perhaps as him whether one child and a divorce is better for him than more children and you).

[im22]

"As for the womb envy." My God you must be a feminist, you realise your on the wrong side of an argument so you resort to completely ignoring the the point made in said argument and insult the other person to try to deflect away from it. The point, whether or not you choose to ignore it and try to deflect it becuase you know it to be correct, is that once conceived, a male can not terminate his rights or responsibilies as a woman can eg. through abortion or putting child up for adoption, therefore in the OP's case, feminist issues are not a large factor in her dilemma but whether or not she has a right/moral case to/for dismissing a loving husband who is asserting his privately held belief that he would not like more children, at the only point in time where he has any control over the matter.

As for the first part of your response, you had no reason to invoke past wrongs other than to justify the wrong you perceive to be a right (ie. that the wife's wishes in regards to future children outweigh a fathers). Simply saying, "no" you weren't is not a substantive response and I can only infer that you are conceding the point. :)

That said, good night and I hope you can com eup with another uninformed feminist response tomorrow.

Again apologies to the OP for unhelpful post

[OverThinkGal]

im22 and others who think there are no "feminist" points here please don't post here and derail. You could post on my other thread. It is specifically because I am learning about feminism that I need to understand the feminist perspective on motherhood/fertility.

I will get comfortable with DS not needing a sibling and his path will be different through life but equally as valid etc.

HerBeX your posts are helping me to clarify that a lot of this is about society's expectations for me as a woman that I will have children (plural). I don't want to be defined by my child(ren)!

My DH is a very logical chap and questions social norms etc. Society normally expects a woman to get herself pregnant (but only when married etc). I feel society will judge me for not being able to persuade DH. I guess that pisses me off.

As I am a very open person I think I will tell people it would be nice to have DC2 but go and tell my DH that! I too will take a different (less conventional path).

[HerBeX]

LOL at your outrage IM22. I actually don't disagree with anything you said. What irritated me, was a) that you put words in my mouth which I didn't say and b) this:

"in the world we currently live in (and therefore the one relevant) women now have far more reproductive rights than men. Pre-conception is the only point at which a male has any control over his reproductive rights,"

I have two gripes with your formulation here. Firstly, it sounds as though you think that's wrong - that men should have more reproductive rights than just at the point of conception and as a feminist of course I disagree with that. Note that I am not accusing you of saying that btw, it just sounded like it at midnight when I was tired and you'd already asked me if I'd said something I nowhere said. I don't see a problem with the fact that men should have no reproductive rights beyond pre-conception, because any rights they had beyond that point, would necessarily infringe on a woman's rights and seeing as how it's her body which is involved, that would be wrong IMO.

However I also question whether they always do have more reproductive rights than women and also a comfortable view that that's somehow set in stone. Men are continually trying to arrogate to themselves more reproductive rights at the expense of those of women - MRA's constantly demand the right to decide that a woman should continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want to, or be forced to abort a child she wants to bear. And in many parts of the world, women have no reproductive rights at all, so your assertion that they have more than men, is completely wrong and I admit, irritated the hell out of me.

Like I say I don't have all the answers here, we're trying to discuss this in a spirit of exploration rather than argument. So sorry I got narky with the womb envy comment, but please read the posts carefully and read what they actually say, not what you think they say.

[HerBeX]

Have just read your second post more carefully and the invoking of past wrongs as you put it - the reason people "invoke past wrongs" is because they are conscious of the fact that hard-won gains cannot be taken for granted.

This is why the rose tinted "we've all got equal rights now, why do you care what happened a century ago" view is so irritating - because we are continually having to fight the same old battles we thought we'd won - every decade, a new threat to our right to abortion, to anonymity in rape trials etc., to our right to equal pay, access to the workplace etc., rears its ugly head. We are discussing issues like this in the context of not having secured our rights forever, because they are continually under attack and will continue to be so until our society is designed for all of us not jsut one half of us. HTH to contexualise.

[HerBeX]

Oh and I didn't concede your point. It wasn't a point I had ever made.

[HerBeX]

Overthinkgal, I think you need to sort out in your own mind, how much of the crapness you feel about answering nosy questions, is about feeling judged as a mother and as a woman, ie a social thing and how much is about your own private feelings about not having another child.

It sounds as though you are determined to be reconciled to not having another child (am I jumping the gun here? Tell me if I am.) but that much of your discomfort is due to how you think other people will perceive your decision to reconcile to that.

[sakura]

Q: "What is the definition of a feminist?"

A: Someone who realises they're on the wrong side of an argument so resorts to completely ignoring the the point made in said argument and insult the other person to try to deflect away from it"

Yup, that's what a feminist is, got it in one imm2

hmm...

[HerBeX]

It's funny what people think feminists are, isn't it Sakura?

To the extent that they see arguments that aren't there, then argue vociferously against them, then tell said feminist off for ignoring them and then tell them that they've conceded them.

You couldn't make it up.

[GenevieveHawkings]

Unfortuntely there is just no workable compromise in these situatons.

You said your DH never wanted children, so you could say that he has already compromised by having one because he knew that was what you wanted.

Now you could equally argue that it is your turn to compromise and stick at one because you have a child.

If you look at it objectively, you could say that you at least got part of what you wanted he didn't get what he wanted.

He has got a child now, and you say he has bonded well with him and loves him so I think you should respect the fact that you have had a good outcome. You've got a lovely child and a DH (who originally didn't want children but relented for you) who has a good relationship with the child you have together.

A relationship is about give and take and it seems that there is no way that you will be satisfied here unless you have another child and your DH has to give you all your own way.

Never mind feminism - I think it sounds a bit selfish.

Women who have just one child but really want another but don't have one (for whatever reason) will always be miserable about in on some level IMHO. The problem is that they can transfer their negative feelings about it onto their children.

I have one by choice (mine and DH's) and we all find our family of 3 a fantastic positive thing. I truly beleive that finding it a positive fantastic thing is down to genuinely wanting it to be that way.

You need to work this thing out because if you don't it has the potential to break your relationship up and screw up your child too.

[GenevieveHawkings]

As for a robust answer, I think that you'd be far better to be honest about it but then I suppose you'll be worried that people will think you're letting your DH dictate to you (which is where the feminist perspective comes in I'm guessing?)

If you feel the need to justify yourself to randon strangers who happen to ask nosey questions (which I certainly wouldn't) you could always point out that he never wanted children but you soon put your foot down about it and told him what would be happening! That'd be bound to score you a few brownie points with the feminists!

In your shoes I really wouldn't worry about what random strangers/nosey neighbours/well-meaning friends and relatives/casual acquaintances/mothers at the school gates
think. I'd be far more concerend about what the resentment was doing to my relationship with my DH and how my negative feelings about having an only child were ultimately going to impact on my child.

[HerBeX]

GH I don't believe the "I put my foot down" approach would score her any points with feminists. Like most reasonable people, most feminists I know believe that relationships are about negotiation, not about one party putting their foot down.

But I agree with you re worrying more about the impact of the OP's own feelings on her relationship, than on worrying about what other people think.

[sakura]

I don't think it will screw up your child...

But I agree withe Genevieve that by having one child you have got more of what you wanted than your DH... who started off wanting none

It does depend on the situation. For example, in my case, my career has taken a nosedive since having kids whereas DH's has been boosted by me becoming a SAHM. He would be way out of line if he told me he didn't want anymore kids despite me desperately wanting another, because I would see that as being a very small wish in the grand scheme of things, that he had the ability to grant.

(not that I do want another, just speaking hypothetically and if he laid out a convincing argument against having more I would take his points on board)