'Women are just too modest': Are men better at self promoting - or is this bollocks?!

[JaneS]

The quotation in the title comes from a (woman) student doing the same course as me. She thinks women are just too modest and that's why they don't end up doing the prestigious, visible jobs.

I think that society sets the boundary between 'boasting' and 'healthy self-promition' in different places for men and for women. I expect many people here agree with me. So, I was wondering if anyone has insights into why we accept this (if we do), and how we challenge it (if we do).

My motivation for this thread was receiving the Old Members newsletter from my university - filled with men recording their latest promotions and publications. The youngest entry was a guy who's a little younger than me, and when I saw him, I congratulated him. It didn't occur to him to ask me how I was doing, and when a mutual friend came up and said, 'so, I hear you're doing well', he immediately responded with a potted history.

Our friend admitted just now that she'd been addressing me, but she thinks that women are too 'modest' and don't self promote, which is why our male friend jumped in to reply.

It got me thinking that, although I think of myself as a feminist, I'm obviously not doing a very good job of communicating that in my professional life, and need some help!

[ISNT]

Interesting. I think that many men are shit at self-promotion too - but there is a certain "type" who is confident and alpha style and does self-promotion, gets on well at work etc because of it. And that there are very few women who are like that.

I have been working on it in my professional life, am looking for a job and been saying how great I am, and no-one has questioned my self-promoting statements! (Taking some advice xenia gave me a while back - the trick is to catch her in a good mood and get some tips!)

[ISNT]

Sorry a rushed post I have to go and do stuff will come back to this later/tomorrow!

[JaneS]

Thanks ISNT. I suspect I'm thinking of, or have often come across, the type you mention as 'alpha'.

I'd love to see what you say when you come back!

[C4ro]

I'm not sure if it is as simple as a men/ women split but I remember the first time in my working life I realised that some peoples self awareness is not that acute. We'd been told to grade ourselves on skills levels in certain software. I graded myself as good in Excel as I could think of a few high end things that I needed more practice in before I'd consider myself an expert. I saw my (male) colleague's self-grading and he'd put himself as expert; yet he didn't know what a macro was, had never built his own spreadsheet before- he just did basic data entry into sheets built by others.

Some people are minded to think "if I don't know if, it's not worth knowing" and others have the view "there must be more to this story that I don't know". The first looks arrogant but could just be self confidence, the second is either great awareness or crippling lack of self-confidence. Too much of either is career limiting in anyone.

[JaneS]

I'm sure you're right it's not a simple split, caro, when it comes down to individuals. But I do wonder if society doesn't make a binary distinction that reinforces men, and undermines women, who self-promote.

I certainly agree you need a balance.

[PosieParkhersleigh]

I'm a good self promoter, great in interviews and generally good at blowing my own trumpet. BUT it works much better with men, women are just more astute...... I think it's because we scrutinise more, listen to what's being said and not who is saying it or how they're saying it. So this follows that we, especially as Brits, refuse to self promote, perhaps we don't believe it in the first place, perhaps we think it's beneath us to boast?

[JaneS]

Any tips then, posie?

Oddly, I've found I am better in interviews with women. I think they can see past the fact that I don't just boast, and realize that when I say I don't know the answer, I've also offered several possible solutions.

In my discipline it's (sadly!) not considered un-British to boast: it's assumed that the Brits are the natural rulers of the world!

[ISNT]

Just practice. When a friend or family member asks you how work is going, try answering really positively. If a work colleague asks something, do the same. I don't know what you normally do, but I used to undersell how difficult the things I was doing were, indicate that I was doing my best but probably it could be done better, and generally be terribly english about it all. I do agree that boasting is seen as rather brash and undesirable (that's how I was brought up) and it's a hard habit to break.

Remember though that you can switch it on and off - so eg playing up something that you're doing to a work colleague or client doesn't mean that you have become terribly boastful, and doesn't mean that you need to talk like that all the time.

Just practice when you see the opportunity. Honestly talking to the recruitment agents (which is easy as they're on the phone and generally are nice to you) I have been coming out with all sorts about how great I am and none of them have batted an eyelid!