Women only wear short skirts to attract men?

[ToyBoat]

This is what two different men have said to me recently - both men I respect (not any more!).

They don't believe me when I say I wear short skirts myself (with leggings) because I worked hard to get my legs slim, and I think I look attractive in them which is, IMO, completely different to saying that I want men to look at my legs and admire them.

It is different, isn't it? I admire women who look and dress attractively, but I don't fancy them.

Can we discuss this issue? I didn't argue my point very well because I was tired at the time, but I could do with some good soundbites to prove to these men that everything in life isn't just about sex and attracting a mate!

[ToyBoat]

This was a conversation when I was trying to explain to these men that one of the reasons feminism is still relevant, is that too many men still see a woman and think first 'is she worth shagging' and second 'is she worth listening to' and it should be the other way round. both men said (separately) that it's just natural that human's first instinct is to think about whether someone's worth shagging or not and that some women want men to look at them that way because 'look how they dress'

[Beachcomber]

Mmmm, I don't think women only wear short skirts to attract men.

I do however think that the male gaze is a massive influence on what a woman will consider attractive/appealing in herself (whether there are men around at the time or not).

[EdgarAllenSnow]

i used to have slim, shapely legs and i wanted to show them off. it was love of my own physical beauty that made me want to wear a short skirt.

these days.....modest and practical calf length does!

[AliceWorld]

What Beachcomber said. I don't buy that we do anything just for ourselves cos we don't live in a vacuum.

That's not to say I think women put on a short skirt with the explicit intention of attracting men, which is what I imagine the OP's friends are referring to.

But it is more complex than it's just for ourselves cos of the whole male gaze thing.

[ToyBoat]

Yes, I agree Alice. Of course it's that we know other people will think we look nice. But I disagree that it's about men wanting to shag us! They say it is about that because it's 'sexual' things we try to emphasize - low cut tops to show off boobs etc.

But I still disagree. I'm a woman, and I'm straight. But I can admire a shapely woman; just the same as I can admire an attractive cat. Doesn't mean I want to shag them.

I think I'm going round in circles with this one

I think it's that I've heard all too many times women described primarily in terms of what they look like, and men described in terms of what they do for a living or what they talked about.

[Beachcomber]

ToyBoat, I think we are talking about what gets called internalisation.

We live in a society which measures women's value to a great extent on their appearance. The criteria for this value judgement is, in a male dominated society, male dominated.

Women internalise this cultural 'norm' and it affects their behaviour and thinking.

We can see this in how what is considered attractive in a woman varies from culture to culture and period in history.

Of course every-time a woman puts on a short skirt she isn't doing it to attract men. She is almost certainly doing it under the influence of patriarchal values however.

[snowflake69]

The first thing I think of when I look at most men is would I shag them or not but then thats all my friends really discuss so I suppose I just do it automatically without thinking.

I dress in short skirts to show off to both men and women. I think most women do and thats why we still dress in those clothes in a 100% female environment.

[ToyBoat]

So I am in fact behaving in an internalised misogynist way by liking the way I look in a short skirt (for instance) and choosing to wear it?

I agree about showing off, but not showing off like 'look at me, aren't I shaggable' but 'look at me, aren't my legs slim and shapely' IYSWIM. I wouldn't have worn a short skirt before I lost all the weight I've lost!

But how come admiring attractive legs on a woman is an internalised cultural norm and admiring a beautifully cultivated rose bush is not? Or is it?

[snowflake69]

I dont think you are doing anything weird toyboat. I was having this conversation with my husband the other day and said would you rather be clever and unattractive or good looking and not very clever he said good looking obviously. I dont think that is a woman thing to think like that at all.

If you want to show off your looks then go for it and dont think there is anything wrong with it.

[ISNT]

OK so the schoolgirls around here wear very short skirts, it is the fashion. Do these men you know seriously believe that these girls wear short skirts so that lecherous old geezers like them will leer at them? The answer is don't be so bloody stupid.

Revealing clothes are fashionable because what is deemed attractive is generally what is appealing to men.

But women as individuals do not put on short skirts in order to attract all and sundry when they leave the house Most women want to attract quite specific men, if indeed they want to attract any men at all.

[Beachcomber]

ToyBoat I'm not judging you or your short skirts - I have a denim mini that is a staple in my wardrobe, that I have had for years and that I think I look nice in.

I just think that what we think looks nice and why we want to look nice is influenced by our culture.

I don't remember using the word misogynist.

[Trubert]

What about low cut tops?

Because I do, sometimes, look at women in very low cut tops and think that they are wearing them to attract the male gaze. Whether consciously or not.

What does looking nice mean? Looking fashionable? Tidy? Attractive? Attractive to whom?

Looking slim? Does that mean looking nice?

[DuelingFanio]

it's just fashion isn't it?

[ISNT]

Looking nice = adhering to prevalent fashion norms.

So when low tops are "in" many women wear low tops, when wearing tights with no skirt is "in" many woman do that (a current fashion I find bizarre to say the least). Women also dress to show off their "good" features and distract from other areas. A woman in a low top is often not doing it in the active hope that people will look at her breasts, but in the hope that they won't look at her stomach. Stuff like that, women are told to do it all the time and we internalise it all...

Also men saying "oh women dress like that because they want me to look" is a bit of a cover up. Because if a woman has an attribute that is currently considered to be "sexy" they will stare irrespective of what the female is wearing, how old they are, what the situation is, etc. Well not all of them, obviously, just the lechy ones. Then they say "oh well if they walk around like that what do they expect".

[msrisotto]

Why do women wear anything? Everything we wear is socially constructed, down to what is even available to buy in the shops. I don't think everything I wear, I do because i want to attract a man (what bout happily married women - do they only wear skirts for their husbands? It's all a little ego centric for a bloke to believe everything is for them!) BUT everything I wear, has been vetted thoroughly by society. Also, dressing to attract a man isn't anti feminist IMO, it is natural to want to attract people sometimes - why do men shave? Or have those stupid goatee things etc etc?

[ToyBoat]

Beachcomber - sorry if you thought I took offence at your post - I didn't! I was challenging myself!

Lowcut tops were included in the examples given by these men, trubert. Personally, I wear low cut tops int he summer because high neck ones are too hot for me! I wouldn't if I looked awful in them though!

Looking slim doesn't necessarily mean looking nice, of course, but one makes the most of ones figure, whatever that is. I have worked hard on my legs, not intentionally, but have done running and dieting and am pleased to find my legs look good - I want to show them off!

But ISNT, you speak a lot of sense - of cousre I would wear long skirts if they were in fashion and suited my figure. I woudln't be wearing miniskirts if absolutely no one else was I don't think.

[Beachcomber]

S'okay ToyBoat - I didn't want you to think I was judging you in some personal way that's all.

[ToyBoat]

I didn't, beachcomber

[Tortington]

we might do it to attract women too

[ISNT]

Nah, if you want to attract women you have to wear dungarees and a snarl.

[sethstarkaddersmum]

MsRisotto - the stupid goatee things are a mystery which years of painstaking scholarship has still not explained.

[ToyBoat]

Haha, ISNT.

Yes, I can't understand stupid goatee things either.

[ChocolateMoose]

I'm wondering if there is actually a huge difference between the clothes that women think look attractive on other women and those that men like. The obvious answer would be that men like clothes to be more revealing but that's not true in all contexts - IME men are at least as ready as women to get their judgeypants on about e.g. a woman wearing a very short skirt to a wedding. Not to say that they wouldn't cop a good look if the woman in question was young and attractive.

[Tortington]

the facial hair thing says in itself " Hey LADIES, i am willing to go down on you...and i think i'm rather good...so much so i have grown facial hair for your pleasure"


never understood why men would wear 'i do cunnilingus' on their face - it amuses me