the Ms thing

[justabit]

Three times in the last week (on a work call, British Gas, and now returning something to a company) I have heard myself saying "sorry but it isn't Mrs it is Ms). In each case I have already filled in a form and they have my database entry in front of them. I think that this is why I have (in one case) even interrupted them to say this. How many more decades do we need to keep daily insisting on the right to have the title we want used? As an irritant this one comes and goes with me but right now I feel that it is a very strong signifier of a refusal to accept a woman's right to set her own conditions for engaging with the world. I have felt quite strongly over the past few years that resistance to the daily markers of feminism is getting stronger. Having typed this now I am wondering if I should have posted it in AIBU? Maybe posting in feminism is a cop out? So tell me if you think that feminism has moved on and there are more important things to worry about?

[togarama]

Bloody annoying, isn't it? If a company doesn't know your title, they shouldn't assume anything at all.

I wish we could get rid of all non-professional / academic titles from standard address and solve this problem at the same time as part of a broader social modernisation process.

[AliceWorld]

Its odd, so many things bother me and this isn't one of them and I can never work out why.

But in terms of this

'So tell me if you think that feminism has moved on and there are more important things to worry about?'
Absolutely not. There are stacks of little battles and it's those that stack up to make a difference. And of course we can all worry about lots of things at the same time. I can't think of an example at the moment, but there are loads of little things I can't let go. Of course on the hierarchy of most important feminist things, this wouldn't be at the top for me, but it doesn't mean it isn't important. Fight it wherever it happens I say

And I wouldn't say posting it here is a cop out personally. Of course elsewhere you'd face a barrage of 'lighten up' 'go and fight poverty instead' etc, but I've heard that stuff ad nauseum.

[frgr]

I hate this too

i've always been a Ms, since about the age of 12 (didn't realise what a big deal it would be until i found myself having to justify it even to my own (mrs) mother!)

last week i called an ISP helpline and the guy on the phone repeatedly referred to me as Mrs Surname, despite that I've only EVER been known as Ms Surname to them, i wouldn't have minded him calling me by my firstname, but to know my title and surname, and just automatically prefix Mrs on there - grrrr!

I didn't correct him, but i think i should have - after all, why is he referring to my martial status on a tech support line? It's completely irrelevant, not accurate, and downright disrespectful.

Whoever said in the thread that it's just a snide little way to make a point that someone doesn't agree that women have the right to choose... that's a good point

i get letters addressed to "mrs Hsurname" all the time from his relatives. they also fail to recognise that H has since changed his surname to double barrel with me (we're Ms Surname-Surname and Mr Surname-Surname, kids are too). it's completely disrespectful

i respect his gran's choice to be Mrs Herbert Surname (or whatever), i would never dream of making a petty little point like that if I'd been told the correct (preferred) way of addressing someone

i noticed they're doing this with leader's wives names now - Nick Clegg's wife is Spanish and has NEVER EVER been known as Mrs Clegg, and they repeatedly refer to her as that (despite already having clarified that she's his wife, so no further clarification needed)...

grr now i'm all angry

[dotty2]

Ha! Was literally just reading this thread when I got a market research call from someone who wanted to know if they were speaking to Mrs DH surname. I told them that I was married to Mr DH but that my name was First name Second name. I am a Ms if asked for a title, but would never say "I am Ms Surname". I prefer no titles at all, and would much rather a salesperson/tradesperson verged on over familiarity by calling me by my first name than Mrs anything. You're right I think to say that to assume you're a Mrs is insulting. To some of us. But then, I wonder whether you're more likely to offend a Ms by calling her Mrs or a Mrs by calling her Ms or Miss? Honestly, it's a social minefield and I find that I can't get too angry about it in the grand scheme of things because women have the right to choose to be Mrs/Miss if they want. Goodness, that was rambly and slightly pointless.

[justabit]

Thank you all. I think it is because this is a daily (right now anyway) experience I am finding it so annoying and occasionally undermining. Since I posted this morning a perfectly nice engineer from British Gas came to fix a tap. He referred to me three times as Mrs X (despite being told the first time that this wasn't correct) and then he said that if it went wrong again he would show me how to fix it so that I could show my husband! I think I am spending today in the 1950s. Oh and the engineer was twenty five so not exactly a product of post WWII conditioning.

[justabit]

Dotty2. I think that is exactly my point. Women do have a right to choose. That right should be respected especially if they have flled in a form/database which is right in front of the person speaking. Like you I prefer that people just use my name.

[frgr]

exactly - it's about respecting people's choices

if my name is sally, and someone called me 'sandra', it wouldn't be acceptable to receive post or continually be called/introduced by the name sandra, would it? i've had to justify my use of Ms every step of the way in some areas of my life (elderly female relatives, interestingly enough), i don't need some random from tesco or an isp engineer showing me a total lack of respect on that regard too

[dotty2]

Oh yes - why do they bother asking you for a title if they are then not going to use it?? Once you've told them, it's just rude. As well as helping prop up the patriarchy, obviously...

[Kitta]

It drives me up the bloody wall! And I don?t think it?s been petty or hold the view that there are bigger battles, I?m very much of the ?broken windows? theory.
I hate it, it is presumptive and I also hate when any sales rep etc calls me by my first name, they will speedily get an ?actually my friends call me Kitta, you can call me Ms X?.
And it is a rule that I stick by I never call someone by their first name unless invited to do so, why should I accept their lack of manners.

Was recently in a situation with OH where he was referred to by salesperson as Mr X and me as Kitta (appointment having been booked in my name) after they did it the second time I stood up to walk out, my rational to the salesperson being that if they couldn?t get that one simple thing right why the hell should we hand over several thousand pounds to them??? (I was fair and had asked him not to call me Kitta, I didn?t expect them to be mind readers. . . . )

[JessinAvalon]

I agree entirely with your opening post. And I was driven mad by a guy in work today who must have used the term "Manpower" about 50 times whilst I was meeting with him. We work for the NHS which is about 80% female, FGS!!

[EvilAntsAndMiasmas]

A friend of mine is working on a database at the moment, and talking about what a nightmare it is trying to get all the women's titles right. I did suggest changing them all to "Ms" as it is the non-marital-status indicating equivalent to Mr - how I wish that all companies/councils would default to doing that.

Still think that married men who believe in "Mrs" being used at all times should be known to everyone as "Married Thompson" or what have you.

[ThighsWideShitItsAGhost]

Ooo, pet hate.

If someone phones me and asks if Mrs Thighs is in, I reply "no, but Miss Thighs is in. Shall I get her?........Speaking."

Confuses the hell out of them.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I know men who when they see Ms. say Miss, for no other reason than "it pisses them off, they think they're feminists see"..
I am Ms. not because I have a problem with Miss or Mrs. but because I am divorced, yet wish to maintain the name of my DS.

[Slur]

I am Ms and have been since I was old enough for a bank account.

I was shocked though when my sister said she assumes all Ms's are divorced.

I am Ms just because I prefer not to say either way. I do rather hate myself when I hear my voice saying slightly shrilly "It's Ms actually." I feel like a parody.

[lollipopshoes]

what pisses me off is that I don't actually care what title they use, but there always has to be one!

I give them my name, they say "is that Miss or Mrs?" I say "I don't care" they say "well, which is it?" I say "I don't care" they say "well are you married?" I say "well, I was once, but am divorced and I now live with my partner as if we were married but we're not and I don't use his name so take your pick, I don't care" and they say "oh we'll just use [insert relevant title] then" and I say "couldn't you have done that in the first place?" and they say "no"

grr!

I really don't see how it's anybody's business, I think we should ALL be Ms unless otherwise specified

[FetchezLaVache]

I'm a married "Miss", which is a whole nother world of confusion for the patriarchs!

[EvilAntsAndMiasmas]

Yeah we should - I cannot believe we are still having these conversations. Do you ever feel like we're still in the 1970s?

A friend told me the other day that when she gets married she will become Ms, not Mrs (and keep surname). She was surprised when I said I already was Ms and would be forever - as if "Ms" was for married women only

Lollipop - next time can you ask for their name, and ask intimately about their marital situation?

E.g. "Is that Married John Smith, Lonely single John Smith, Divorced John Smith or Cheating on his Wife John Smith - I need to get the title so I can make a complaint"

[EvilAntsAndMiasmas]

Fetchez - couple of my male friends think this is the way forward, as "Miss" sounds polite apparently and doesn't indicate anything (in the same way that teachers are called Miss - or they were at my school at least).

But then you get the "I'm married and proud to be Mrs HK Donkeydick thank you very much" brigade making complaints.

[togarama]

I've also been Ms since I was a teenager and never considered changing anything on marriage.

The thing that really annoys me about dealing with big companies and banks is that I have presumably submitted my correct details to all of them at an early stage but their systems and/or people are too stupid or disfunctional to use the details I've provided when they contact me.

I'd gladly do without a title to be honest and will be very happy when all non-earned titles die out. I'm happy for people to call me just by my first name and would much rather have this than be called Mrs HisName or Miss MyName. (Although as that's quite androgynous, lots of people assume I'm going to be a man if I don't use any title...)

I do understand that to some people titles still infer respect. I would be hopping mad if someone in authority referred to DH as Mr HisSurname but me as plain FirstName. The dual approach is infantilising.

[HerBeatitude]

LOL at being called Mrs HK Donkeydick.

I actually rather fancy that. Can you introduce me to Mr Donkeydick?

I think the problem is with the word Ms actually. In every other country in Europe, AFAIK, you are just automatically Mrs as soon as you are 18. In Germany you are Frau, in France you are Mme, in Spain you are Senora, etc. Only poetic, irony or taking the piss uses the "miss" form, or for very young teenagers of course.

So every woman, married or otherwise, is Mrs and there are no feminist or stepford connotations to the adult female title. I don't know why this didn't happen in Britain.

[EvilAntsAndMiasmas]

I don't know HB, especially because it used to. When the hell did that change?

[blackcurrants]

Argh! People who refuse to call you by the title you use are SO SODDING ANNOYING! I hate it!

I 'confuse' my undergraduate students by telling them to call me by my first name, and telling them my full name (which they can see anyway, on the website, etc). They're straight out of school and stumble a bit with calling me by my first name, ("sorry, it feels weird, cos you're a teacher!") but we're 7 weeks into the class and most of them have got over their nerves about it by now. BUT when they come to hand in essays they have to put my name and their name and the course number, etc. . . can you guess where I'm going with this?

Last time I got "Mrs Currants", "Professor Currants" and "Ms Currants" (the correct title, and surely the safest one? I mean, why assume anything? Ms is NEUTRAL AND THAT'S THE POINT! Damnit!). They know I'm married (though I don't wear a ring - pudgy preggo fingers not gone down!) because I've made a jovial remark or two in class about my teacher DH giving me a cold he brought home from school, so some assumed my surname was a married name. Nope! I quietly correct that part of their essays, and will be interested to see if anyone makes that mistake twice.

The idea that a married woman would be Ms was a bit alien to some of them, but I've been Ms since I had forms to fill in. Despite my whole family writing to Mrs DH'sFirstname, Dh's lastname.. . but they're just being bastards misguided like that. I suppose if they wanted to be formal they could use the fancy term for my job, 'Preceptor.'

Ooh, I think I'm going to insist on being addressed as 'PreceptorCurrants' from now on. On my gas bill...

Can't wait till I'm Dr and can duck all this nonsense. Bet my parents will still write to Dr DH'sFirstname DH'sLastname, though. And if they sodding do, I'll ask them, pointedly, at what point they thought DH got his PhD...

[Treats]

I think the trouble is that all the big companies have their databases and these all have 'Title' as a mandatory field. So if someone is completing your details, they HAVE to put something. Personally I would prefer to be just Firstname Surname then Miss, Ms, Mrs or anything, but this is so rarely an option. I daresay the people who are speaking to you couldn't give a flying f* whether you're Ms or whatever, but they have to follow the system.

I quite like messing with the options on a drop down field when completing online forms that insist on a Title - as long as it's not an official form, I'll claim a Damehood for myself, or award myself a Doctorate or elevate myself to the peerage..........

Hate hate hate being addressed to Mrs DHFirstname DH Surname. Only my in laws do this......