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MMR or single measles...please don't judge!

(47 Posts)
momacharlie Fri 19-Apr-13 21:01:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ladycelestial Fri 19-Apr-13 22:08:57

There is absolutely no reason why a child should react to a different immunisation. This is because the illnesses are completely different and the actual act of injecting the child would not cause any systemic reaction. With the current outbreaks, I would definitely get your child immunised with the MMR.

Ruralninja Fri 19-Apr-13 22:10:32

Mumps can make males infertile, so would have thought even more important for DS.

pansyflimflam Fri 19-Apr-13 22:11:36

Stick to singles. There is one outbreak, not many. Single measles would be safer imo

SanityClause Fri 19-Apr-13 22:16:38

The MMR has been used successfully in many countries since the 1970s. The irony is that people perceive that the single vaccines are safer, but in fact they are much less tested, so the risks associated with them are less well known than for the MMR.

There have been no studies, for example, to show that the single measles vaccine cannot be linked to autism. There are a number of studies, including the famous Wakefield study, which show that there is no statistical link between the MMR and the incidence of autism.

ladycelestial Fri 19-Apr-13 22:16:50

The MMR is perfectly safe. Wakefield, the doctor who did the research linking the MMR with autism, has been completely discredited. He should be in prison if you ask me.

SanityClause Fri 19-Apr-13 22:18:56

And if you are unsure, get advice from your GP.

scaevola Fri 19-Apr-13 22:22:29

Pneumonia is one of the major complications with measles I have no idea which jab might be better for DS, but if it is a particular concern, then you really need to get one of them into him ASAP.

Ruralninja Fri 19-Apr-13 22:23:15

The threshold for striking off for the GMC is criminal negligence with the same proof threshold as a criminal court. He received money and exploited vulnerable children (e.g. submitting them to unnecessary medical procedures like lumbar punctures) in pursuit of his discredited research. The attached link compares some of the risks. www.ncirs.edu.au/immunisation/education/mmr-decision/measles.php

noblegiraffe Fri 19-Apr-13 22:42:50

The pneumococcal vaccine isn't live, so can't have caused the pneumonia. Also, vaccines cause far less burden to the immune system than normal things children are exposed to, there is no evidence that they can overload the immune system. Studies have shown this idea is nonsense.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 00:07:39

If you are happier with the single measles vaccine then go with that. You can always check immunity to mumps before puberty and then consider vaccinating against it if necessary. Over 30% of csses are completely adymptomatic.

According to the HPA there is no firm evidence that mumps causes sterility. However mumps can have more complications in post puberty boys such as orchitis.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 00:09:33

I'm wondering how they studied that noble. confused

bruffin England Sat 20-Apr-13 01:48:01
bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 06:31:16

Was that supposed to answer my question to noble?

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 20-Apr-13 06:58:19

the MMR is perfectly safe

Don't state such ignorant biased shite so flippantly, for your own sake ladycelestial No vaccine is 100% safe on each individual child and a case in Italy ruled the MMR had done considerable damage to a little boy.

OP if you feel better doing the single vaccine then go for it.

ladycelestial Sat 20-Apr-13 07:30:04

The scientific evidence shows that the MMR is safe. WaynettaSlobsLover posting otherwise is scare mongering and irresponsible. Already we are seeing outbreaks of measles following parents being scared to get their children immunised. Unfortunately, as well as measles being a very unpleasant illness it can cause very serious complication.

Conjunctivitis (eye infection).
Laryngitis (inflammation of the voice box).
Ear infection causing earache.
Infections of the airways, such as bronchitis and croup, which can be common.
A febrile convulsion (fit) occurs in about 1 in 200 cases. This can be alarming, but full recovery is usual.
Encephalitis may cause brain damage. Some children die from this complication.
Hepatitis (liver infection).
Pneumonia (lung infection) is a serious complication that sometimes develops.
Squint is more common in children who have had measles.
A very rare brain disease called subacute sclerosing panencephalitis can develop years later in a very small number of people who have had measles. This can sometimes occur several years after getting measles. This condition can be fatal.

ladycelestial Sat 20-Apr-13 07:39:52

There was extensive research already available on millions of people around the world on the safety of the MMR. Wakefield's report, dealt with 12 children.

I would ask the following questions:

Why are the general public so ignorant of scientific methodology?
Why are the media so ignorant of scientific methodology?
Should the media be held more to account for blatent scare mongery?
Why is Wakefield not in jail?

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 07:41:05

Lady, nothing waynetta said is false. No vaccine can be said to be 100% safe (have you read the vaccine inserts?) and a child did recently win a court case in Italy in relation to vaccine damage from the MMR.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 07:41:51

Lady, do you know what a case series is?

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 07:47:14

Bumbley, when vaccines are added together, they are tested and blood tests taken to check the immunological response. If the immune system were being 'overloaded' this would be evident then. If the immune system couldn't cope with lots of vaccines at the same time, you'd expect the immune response to the multiple vaccine to be weaker than to single, spaced out jabs. However, this isn't the case at all.

This article explains it thoroughly

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full

In particular
'Of course, most vaccines contain far fewer than 100 antigens (for example, the hepatitis B, diphtheria, and tetanus vaccines each contain 1 antigen), so the estimated number of vaccines to which a child could respond is conservative. But using this estimate, we would predict that if 11 vaccines were given to infants at one time, then about 0.1% of the immune system would be “used up.”

However, because naive B- and T-cells are constantly replenished, a vaccine never really “uses up” a fraction of the immune system. For example, studies of T-cell population dynamics in HIV-infected patients indicate that the human T-cell compartment is highly productive. Specifically, the immune system has the ability to replenish about 2 billion CD4+ T lymphocytes each day. Although this replacement activity is most likely much higher than needed for the normal (and as yet unknown) CD4+ T-cell turnover rate, it illustrates the enormous capacity of the immune system to generate lymphocytes as needed.'

WidowWadman Sat 20-Apr-13 07:51:07

Just because an Italian judge (i.e. not an expert in immunology) made a dodgy ruling, that doesn't mean that scientific consensus has changed.

This is not to say that vaccine damage never occurrs, but, autism is not one of potential adverse effects and the relation of the number adverse effects to number of vaccinations given is miniscule, especially compared to the number of adverse effects and deaths caused by the disease in relation to infections.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 08:04:36

Expert witnesses probably helped him make that decision Widow. If you don't know anything about the court case you probably shouldn't speculate about whether or not the ruling was 'dodgy' hmm

Waynetta's point is that no vaccine is 100% safe and that MMR can cause vaccine damage (like any other vaccine). Considering that there vaccine damage compensation schemes I think scientific consensus is that it can and does happen so way beta hasn't said anything false.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 08:05:14

Noble, I'm not ignoring you - it's a long article so I want to read it properly later before I reply smile

WidowWadman Sat 20-Apr-13 08:11:23

It's this one you refer to, isn't it? I stand by "dodgy ruling". Ruling was based on Wakefield's "research" after all.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 20-Apr-13 08:42:11

I stand by what I say. You have spoken biased flippant shite. Don't ever tell any person that a vaccine, particularly one as reactive and unpredictable as the MMR is 'safe'.

I was one of the children who had the MMR and was extremely sick afterwards. According to my mum and to my medical records I did not sleep much, and displayed psychotic behaviour as well as self harming. I haven't shared this before on mumsnet. My gut instinct as a mother, as well as being a former HCP myself, and the research I have done has made me come to an informed decision about the MMR and vaccinations. I won't be doing them.

ladycelestial Sat 20-Apr-13 09:21:27

WaynettaSlobsLover, the overwhelming scientific evidence is what I'm going on, which is not flippant, or biased. Scientific research allows us to determine relative risks enough to make judgements on whether a medication is a good idea or not. MMR is one of the easy ones, the stats are so much in its favour as to make decisions relatively easy.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 09:34:55

Waynetta, don't confuse 'safe' with 'no side effects ever'. Aspirin can cause strokes. Paracetamol can cause rare serious side effects. It's about weighing the benefits against the risks.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 09:57:46

There is a problem of basic science with Offit's article noblegiraffe - it is entirely theoretical. He theorizes that an infant could respond to 10,000 vaccines at one time. It is nonsense. Responding to an antigen is not the same as responding to a vaccine - one would have thought that Offit as a doctor and vaccine developer, would know this.

Is there anyone here who would be up for testing that on a real live human being? Giving 10,000 vaccines? (Perhaps Offit would volunteer and we could count how many vaccines his body could withstand before it went into seizure or heart failure.)

In the United States they used the MMRV vaccine Proquad for some time - it vaccinates against measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox. They had to stop recommending the vaccine because it doubled the incidence of seizures as a side effect. There was quite clearly an effect on children due to vaccinating against four viruses at the same time rather than three. That is the real life experience of multiple vaccination and it shows Offit's theories to be dangerous and utterly fanciful.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:29:39

Beachcomber, I have googled and found nothing apart from a vaccine conspiracy site to suggest that the vaccine was withdrawn due to increased side effects, merely that there was a manufacturing problem.

The doubling of seizures (an additonal 4.3 per 10,000) was compared to children receiving MMR + chicken pox in different syringes on the same day - so it can't possibly have been anything to do with immune system overload as the immune system was receiving exactly the same load. Your assertion that it was due to vaccinating against 4 viruses instead of 3 is simply incorrect as it was comparing 4 viruses to 4 viruses.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:34:52

Wow, I just checked and you were repeating an error made by Wakefield. More poor research on his part, or flat out lies?

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:41:02

Oh, hang on, I see, the vaccine hasn't been withdrawn at all, an advisory body has simply stopped recommending it over having the 4 viruses vaccinated against on the same day in two jabs.

Nothing to do with immune system overload.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 10:50:32

"Perfectly safe" is actually misleading. Nothing is "perfectly safe".

However, I have MMR'd my lot.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:58:15

Can I just clarify:

In an interview, Andrew Wakefield claimed that Proquad had been withdrawn because of a doubling of seizures compared to separate vaccines, suggesting that adding more vaccines on the same day is dangerous. www.whale.to/vaccine/mercola1.html

Andrew Wakefield was wrong, the vaccine has not been withdrawn. Andrew Wakefield is also incorrect to suggest that the problem was anything to do with an extra vaccine being given, because the rate was compared to MMR plus chickenpox vaccines also being given on the same day.

Andrew Wakefield either has not researched his claim correctly (the information is freely available from even the drug manufacturer) or he is lying to support his pro-single vaccine agenda.

Either way, it's not looking good for Andrew Wakefield as a source you can trust. hmm

taypottick Sat 20-Apr-13 10:59:57

I mmr'd my dd but reading all the information that is now available on the internet against vaccine I would be more hesitant nowadays. Mumsnetters seem so biased towards having the jab, but if you look on the David Icke forum you get a completely different viewpoint.

It is a tough one.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 11:02:42

You can find all sorts of bollocks on the David Icke forum. You know David Icke thinks the royal family are lizards, right?

The David Icke forum was behind a lot of the speculation that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile too, I seem to remember. Another win for the David Icke forum, no?

CatherinaJTV Germany Sat 20-Apr-13 11:10:00

if you look on the David Icke forum you get a completely different viewpoint

That is certainly true - but that doesn't mean that you get any real information there.

I got mumps as an adult and lost the baby I was carrying. There is a link between mumps and miscarriage in early pregnancy (I was 12 weeks)
I do not consider mumps a mild disease for girls. I wasn't vaccinated by the way, my parents are also well meaning but ignorant like a lot of parents who think vaccinating is more risky than not vaccinating.

CatherinaJTV Germany Sat 20-Apr-13 11:19:49

so sorry Ehric sad

AnythingNotEverything Sat 20-Apr-13 11:21:52

OP I have no research to back up any guy feeling about which you should do, but do talk to your GP about this, and whatever you do, please do vaccinate your children.

I weighed up any theoretical risk on the jabs with the actual risk of the illnesses. These are nasty illnesses.

Thanks catharina smile it was a long time ago, I have made peace with it, I'm just sick of people thinking these things are not risky. All 'childhood' illnesses are dangerous in pregnant women and due to successful vaccine programmes mumps was rare until the bloody mmr scandal put the wind up parents and now many, many unvaccinated adults are getting it. It's the 25-35 demographic who didn't have the vaccine and didn't get mumps as a child who are vulnerable. My brother got it as an adult and so did several of his friends, as you know it can be risky for a man's fertility. And having experienced mumps in my saliva glands I can't imagine how unbearable it would be to get it in your testicles shock

OP your dd might never be at risk from mumps but by leaving her unvaccinated you are risking a lot of other people's health.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 11:59:44

Noblegirafe, I didn't say the vaccine had been withdrawn, I said they stopped recommending it being used. You may believe that they stopped using it because of manufacturing issues rather than the fact that it causes seizures if you wish. It seems odd to spend millions developing a vaccine, safety testing it and then having it CDC and FDA approved only to then not bother to produce it....(especially in the US where they just love their chicken pox vaccines).

The fact that a four in one vaccine caused a different reaction to a three in one plus a single surely bears thinking about rather than being dismissed, non?

There was a difference detected in how children reacted to MMRV and how they reacted to MMR + single V.

My first question would be are the units of virus the same in the two combinations? And is anyone looking into why putting the 4 viruses in one injection made a difference to giving 3 + 1?

The JCVI in the UK advised the spacing of live viral vaccines until the introduction of MMR.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 12:10:14

No, beachcomber, you didn't say it was withdrawn, that's correct. Wakefield said it was withdrawn. When I googled your claim, that's where I was directed and I got you and him confused, my apologies.

I'm about to start a thread about this as it has made me very cross with Wakefield and I think it deserves wider publicity.

I think (it was certainly tested but I'm not sure if it's the same for the final vaccine) that the chicken pox element of proquad is stronger than the single jab, so they are not completely the same.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 12:24:35

No worries noblegiraffe, apology accepted, thanks!

I don't know what the viral load is of Proquad when compared to MMR + single V. If I have time later I might look it up. I know Merck had issues in the past with the mumps element of the MMR which led them to increase the mumps units although I believe they also increased the single but then the single is little used in the US.

Bugsylugs Sat 20-Apr-13 16:34:05

waynetta I became really unwell on the evening I should have had the swine flu vaccine ( first yr available) in the morning. If I had had it it would have been put down to vaccine reaction which would have been an error. You can never be sure

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 16:43:16

Ehric, sorry for your loss. sad

The mumps component if the MMR is the least effective component and is known to wane over time so many teenagers who had the MMR when they were younger are still vulnerable to mumps.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 16:46:56

So can you have a third MMR jab to boost the mumps component?

Given mumps as an adult is generally considered worse than in children would it be better to catch mumps as a child if the vax is weak?

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 16:54:52

You probably could Winky and they may very well end up recommending one. Seems a bit unnecessary to have to vaccinate against two other diseases that you are immune to just to top up immunity to one though. Disadvantage of multiple vaccines!

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