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Be aware - if you had single jabs for mumps, measles and rubella your chn are not classed as fully vaccinated!!

(42 Posts)
nickyjay2471 Fri 19-Apr-13 18:11:57

That was the message I got from my drs, and confirmed when I contacted Public Health England. They are now saying they only count combined MMR jabs. Mine were vaccinated singly for first lot, then MMR booster. Now being told they need a further booster hmmconfused

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 18:24:05

that sucks and I would like to see the evidence on which they base this...

MrsSalvoMontalbano Fri 19-Apr-13 18:36:00

Utter rubbish! My GP was very happy to write me a pescription for the Measles and Mumps vacs for my DC. She tols me that rubella is not a serious disease unless for the foetus, so no reason for DC to be immunised for that, only adult women before they conceive. When you are planning to conceive, tell the GP, they will arrange a test to see if you are immune - if not you can have the single rubella then. Children do not need a rubella vaccination - if they get the disease tehy may have no symptoms.

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 18:51:01

Children do not need a rubella vaccination - if they get the disease tehy may have no symptoms.

which means they may run around and infect pregnant women whose rubella vaccine did not take... it may even be their own wife/mother (as reported for Japan).

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 19:29:42

So we blame the non-immune child rather than the non-immune mother Catherina?

UnscentedStillRomantic Fri 19-Apr-13 19:32:38

Mine had singles then MMR booster. Why don't the singles count?confused

Methe Fri 19-Apr-13 19:33:20

My ds had rubella as a baby. Only symptom was a slight rash oh his head. The worrying this was that as he was premature we were spending a load of time in childrens out patients at out local hospital - we have to walk though maternity to get there.

Of course children should be immunised against rubella.. Those children will be pregnant woman and expectant fathers themselves one day.

VerityClinch Fri 19-Apr-13 19:34:16

I had my rubella vaccination at school. When I fell pregnant with DD, blood tests showed I was not immune - it's relatively common for it to wear off, or so I was told. I had the MMR jab after DD was born (they wouldn't discharge me without it!) and when I fell pregnant with DS 5 months later my bloods were fine and showed my immunity.

Please vaccinate your children - pregnant women are really at risk and it's quite possible to have no immunity as an adult even if you had the jab yourself as a schoolgirl.

nickyjay2471 Fri 19-Apr-13 20:12:15

Not sure about evidence Katherina but they pointed me towards following policies
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1274088429847
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1238565307587

sydlexic Fri 19-Apr-13 20:20:21

My GP said that they don't count single jabs, because it is a matter of policy. They cannot record them if they did not administer them. It does not mean the DC have less protection.

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 20:53:48

I don't think they apply that logic in all situations though syd. Eg. If children are coming in from different countries with different vaccine records, those vaccines are still 'counted' even though the NHS didn't give them. Doesn't sound like the truth to me!

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 20:57:24

Bumbley - it means nothing to the disabled child whom we "blame". Vaccinating only women has been tested in various countries, it has failed and has led to thousands of entirely preventable maimed babies.

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 20:59:14

syd - I agree with Bumbley (mark the calendar ;) ). All my kids' vaccines have been "counted" and my DD's "foreign" MMR has even been accepted for volunteering work in the NHS.

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 21:02:24

Catherina, maybe all older girls and boys should be tested and vaccinated of required then...

<picks self off floor after Catherina's second post wink >

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 21:04:52

Nickyjay - thank you for those links. I don't find that "singles don't count" info in either of them and one talks of "measles containing vaccine" which can be a measles single. This does absolutely not make sense and I will go after the HPA and PHW and ask explicitly and then get back to you.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 21:14:59

I was looking up the stats for what %age of measles cases occurred in the vaccinated. For 2012, the HPA counted both single vaxed and MMR vaxed as one total.

DebJT33 Fri 19-Apr-13 21:36:41

That is a really good point AuntieStella. If anyone sees any information on the breakdown in the current S. Wales outbreak of how many of the cases had MMR, single vax or none at all, can they post the link? Thanks.

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 23:01:31

Public Health Wales has said, they are collecting the numbers and they'll be published soon (my guess is in Eurosurveillance, like the Merseyside numbers last July).

CatherinaJTV Fri 19-Apr-13 23:02:57

Bumbley - maybe all kids should get the MMR. I don't know what is funny about congenital rubella syndrom, btw. The daughter of a colleague of my mum was born with the full blown version, blind, deaf, severe heart malformation, intellectual disability, cerebral palsy - the works. NOT funny.

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 23:44:59

Where did I say it was funny? confused

sashh Sun 21-Apr-13 03:41:54

So we blame the non-immune child rather than the non-immune mother Catherina?

The reason the second MMR was introduced after a couple of babies were born blind because their older sibling had rubella.

Now being told they need a further booster

As I said on the other thread, not all single vaccines were effective, due to problems with imports and some unscrupulous people jumping on the band wagon.

The government/NHS do not know how many children are only partially immunised. If they have had MMR x 2 then there is a 95% chance they are immune, with one MMR it's 90% with singles it could be anything.

There is no (or rarely) an NHS record for the singles.

Bumbly from debating with you on here I'm sure you researched the clinic/Dr well.

But the government and the NHS are in a position of not knowing how many people are immune.

They could do a blood test on every child who had singles and if they need a booster give MMR, or just give MMR to everyone who has not had 2 doses. There is no evidence that an extra MMR does any harm other than the usual temperature etc you might get from the first MMR.

bumbleymummy Sun 21-Apr-13 05:57:04

Sassh, the singles are no less effective than the MMR at protecting against measles and most parents have a record showing that they have been vaccinated and/or have had their child's immunity tested to ensure that they are. Adults who were vaccinated as children with the single vaccine that was available back then are considered immune. There is no reason for those vaccinated with singles not to be recognised.

The majority of clinics in the UK offer the same two measles vaccines. I think you have been very wrong to scaremonger on a few threads now and suggest that there is something wrong with those vaccines.

CatherinaJTV Sun 21-Apr-13 09:32:34

Bumbley, did you mean my first post in this thread?

BoundandRebound Sun 21-Apr-13 09:34:02

Yes I knew this

Isn't it absolutely ridiculous

No sepvax count towards vaccination figures

It is disingenuous of the govt. at best

BoundandRebound Sun 21-Apr-13 09:34:46

Then again they also don't ever talk about how vaccinations don't give life long immunity either so maybe another booster wouldn't hurt

lljkk Sun 21-Apr-13 09:41:57

I get the logic, the singles aren't administered by NHS, aren't licensed, aren't considered valid.

I had to get a measles booster when I was 22 so I don't really see the problem. OP's kids would have 99.95% chance of full immunity with another booster, what's not to like?

scaevola Sun 21-Apr-13 09:48:25

They can be counted as valid. It's what HPA England includes in its stats. Then again, Wales also counts its cases differently (will accept doctors' diagnoses, England uses lab confirmed).

It's a pity, because clarity (and an agreed methodology) for whole of UK would mean that commentators would have a common starting point. The current differences will lead to more arguments over the stats, rather than proper consideration of vaccination.

What matters, especially now, is getting the vaccinations done. Not pushing one particular jab on children who have documented evidence that they have received a different jab with a measles component.

OrlaKiely Sun 21-Apr-13 09:53:09

so they want kids who have had the single jabs to have the mmr as well?

I can understand discounting for the purpose of statistics but seriously?

Picturesinthefirelight Sun 21-Apr-13 10:05:35

Well dd had single vaccines (ds started the course but chickenpox interrupted it so he had MMR when he was 5) and I count her as vaccinated.

Vaccination doesn't guarantee immunity anyway

bumbleymummy Sun 21-Apr-13 10:41:24

No Catherina, you posted two posts together just slightly up thread - the second one being where you agreed with me about something...

CatherinaJTV Sun 21-Apr-13 16:45:57

Bumbley - I'll make sure not to let it happen too often grin

CatherinaJTV Sun 21-Apr-13 16:47:11

I got word from PHW now - not very helpful:

^Public Health Wales

Hi there Catherina, sorry if we missed an earlier message from you. Two doses of the single measles vaccine would in theory fully vaccinate a child against measles but not against mumps and rubella. We do still see mumps outbreaks in Wales and it would be wise to ensure your children are fully protected against all three diseases. You should be aware that the single measles vaccine is not licensed for use in the UK or quality assured. Therefore our advice as health professionals would be that even if your children have received two doses of the single measles vaccine, you would be safest starting again with a full course of MMR. It is not possible to be over-vaccinated against measles so perfectly safe to start again. Hope that helps!^

I asked for further clarification, but I guess this is the official line "safest to start again with full course of MMR".

OrlaKiely Mon 22-Apr-13 07:34:24

What is their huge investment in the MMR? It's no wonder people are suspicious when they are pushing it so hard.

sashh Mon 22-Apr-13 07:35:36

Sassh, the singles are no less effective than the MMR at protecting against measles

Yes IF the vaccine has been imported and stored correctly. As I said, I know you would have researched, not everyone did.

If the MMR is not stored correctly it is useless, as are many other vaccines, most have to be kept chilled.

It is a reasonable assumption that MMR or a single jab given in an NHS doctor's surgery or hospital will have been stored correctly.

Unfortunately the records are just not there for singles since the NHS moved to MMR. You have paperwork that says your child was given the injection, you don't have the paper trail for the factory to injection and that is the problem.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Apr-13 08:10:54

Well most people will be having the vaccines in private clinics and given by doctors. They don't send them out in the post smile not sure why you don't tink there's a paper trail from the manufacturers. What are you basing that on?

CatherinaJTV Mon 22-Apr-13 08:15:17

Orlakiely

What is their huge investment in the MMR? It's no wonder people are suspicious when they are pushing it so hard.

I am going to totally venture out on a limb here, Orla, and propose that Public Health Wales "pushes" the MMR "so hard", because South Wales is in the middle of a measles epidemic with >800 cases and more new cases per day than the United States has had per year to date. They are looking at the first potential death and have had 80 or so highly contagious patients treated in their hospitals, which are no longer equipped to hold such patients. They have thousands more definitely unprotected Welsh to worry about and do not have the resources to treat each "may or may not be protected" person according to a half hour anamnesis plus titre test, so they are going for the £20/head solution, which is known to be effective to curb outbreaks and recommend that over risking a single patient in intensive care for 3 weeks. Because, as a Public Health Board, they have the responsibility for 3 million Welsh and are not the sort of private GP who sees a tiny section of the population well off enough to go for "individualised" solutions.

In other words - they are doing their jobs.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Apr-13 08:24:09

That doesn't really account for why they won't recognise people who have records of singles vaccines ( although I don't think they are asking all adults to come in for the MMR even though they would have been given singles when they were young)

MrsSalvoMontalbano Mon 22-Apr-13 08:35:28

Precisely. The singles are as effective, and you don't need to be 'considered' to be covered, if you have immunised your children singly, you know they are immunised and don't need to prove it to anyone else. The 'death' has been jumped on with glee (and out of desperation)by the NHS, I bet they were terrified there would be no 'death';s and so are grabbing thius one as a scare tactic, even though the unfortunate person may have had a rare conditon that would have mean that getting the jab would equally have casued complications. The outbreak has actully shown that measles is not as serious as we have been told about for years. How many people have died in Wales in car crashes since the measles outbreak?

scaevola Mon 22-Apr-13 08:41:44

Even with a private prescription, the manufacturer and batch number will be recorded (and put in your Red Book if you thought to take it along). It's administratively just as safe as MMR, and the transport/storage logistics are identical to NHS too. Where do you think jabs come from. They're not all manufactured within UK.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Apr-13 08:45:12

Someone posted a news article yesterday that said he had actually been in hospital for his asthma that week. Local people thought he had died from an asthma attack - i don't tgink that has been confirmed though. He had been vaccinated as well. Still too early to know the full story. I actually think it's pretty awful how his death is being splattered all over the newspapers. His poor family. sad

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Apr-13 09:19:59

Apparently he had seen a doctor the night before because he had felt unwell and had come out in a rash. Why did the doctor not suspect measles in the middle of a measles outbreak? confused Maybe because he'd been vaccinated against it?

OrlaKiely Mon 22-Apr-13 09:43:01

Catherina, I didn't mean at the moment. I meant in general.

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