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Starting to have MMR doubts and panicking

(180 Posts)
SneezingwakestheJesus Thu 28-Mar-13 19:20:42

I had finally decided to give my dd the MMR and she has her appointment next week. But now I'm having doubts again and panicking. Her uncle has autism and his mum is utterly convinced it happened after the MMR. I know that study was a fake/discredited etc but I'm finding it hard to see past her, and other parents online, strong belief that the signs of autism appeared overnight in their children. And those recent court cases where parents were given compensation on the basis that the vaccines their children had may be linked to their condition worry me too.

What if some autism is caused by the vaccine in some way? What if there is a genetic predisposition to having autism and all it needs is a trigger? What if my dd has a genetic predisposition from that side of the family?

I know I sound paranoid but I'm really struggling with this. On one hand I could give her a vaccination that will protect her from diseases but isn't guaranteed not to harm her. On the other, I don't give her the vaccination but she may catch one of these diseases and may be ever worse off than if the vaccine did harm her. I'm so torn and muddled about it.

I just don't know what to do and I don't know what I expect from posting here but I can't talk to my family about it.

PhyllisDoris Thu 28-Mar-13 19:27:07

Google what severe cases of each disease look like, and what the effects are on the people who have the disease.
The 3 diseases are making a comeback because people are not getting their kids vaccinated - big problem in Wales atm.
You really don't want your kids to get any of those illnesses.

KatOD Thu 28-Mar-13 19:49:15

I can understand your concern, and of course it's for you to do what you're happy with.

To my mind the autism/MMR "research" was completely discredited as statistical scaremongering, so the choice is (a) get your child vaccinated and provide some scientifically proven protection to both your child and others they come into contact with or (b) don't vaccinate them and offer afore mentioned proven protection because of a worry about a completely unproven side effect.

issypiggle Thu 28-Mar-13 19:53:48

i totally see here you're coming from my cousin is autistic and my aunt was adamant that it happened because of the the mmr.

i've decided that the risk of dd getting something is to too high not to take her.
in the long run i know a lot of people who are fine.

so dd is off for mmr 2 next week.

BettyBlues Thu 28-Mar-13 19:57:20

Your thinking is right. Vaccinations aren't safe for everyone.

Vaccinations are especially dangerous if your child has any kind of gut or digestive problems.

As well as constipation, diahreeah, bloating and excess wind look out for purple rings under eyes and hyper mobile joints.

yousankmybattleship Thu 28-Mar-13 20:06:10

Just because one thing happens after another doesn't necessarily show cause and effect. Your Uncle may have started showing signs of autism after having the vaccination but that doesn't mean it caused it. Autism is often first diagnosed at about the same time that the vaccinations are given, but that is no reason to link the two. The research which did suggest a link has been widely discredited. I'd take excess wind over severe measles any day!

Shakey1500 Thu 28-Mar-13 20:09:56

Massive problem with a measles outbreak in S. Wales at present as a pp mentioned. Better safe than sorry I say.

An ex friend refused to have her DS vaccinated. But that was more to do with her utterly bizarre conspiracy theories that there was a "control drug" in the vaccinations, as instructed by the government and a massive cover up hmm confused Hence the term "ex friend"

There is a decision aid here aid
Which might help?

I think what the first poster the effects of the three diseases.

SneezingwakestheJesus Thu 28-Mar-13 20:43:14

I've googled the effects before (just done it again now) and even though I can see the terrible side effects that could happen, I still can't decide. This is so horrible sad I know on one hand that I should do it to protect her but on the other I am so scared of her regressing and autism being triggered. Its hard because with the diseases she could get lucky and just be a bit poorly or she could go completely the other way. If it was the choice between triggering autism and death, the answer would be simple. Its just so hard to accept what science says when people are adamant their child changed overnight. And why do people get compensation for autism as a result of vaccines if it doesn't happen? How do I shake that worry?

sashh Fri 29-Mar-13 06:00:29

If MMR cause or triggered autism then the number of autistic people in the world would go up.

Japan got rid of the MMR and their rates of autism stayed the same.

Diagnosis of autism is on the increase, but that is due to better detection. Eg I have a lot of Aspergers traits. I do not have a diagnosis but I could probably get one. I'm too old to have had MMR.

Yes your dc could get one of the diseases, and it could be mild. But it might not be.

And for me the clincher is that there is no cure for the diseases we vaccinate against. Treatment can be given but in the end it is your child fighting a disease on their own.

There is a poster on here who has two children with autism. One she 'lost' completely overnight. She says herself if it had been the day after MMR she would blame that, but it wasn't.

As for things happening just after an event well

How many of those children whose parents claim it was MMR that triggered their autism had

Been fed milk as babies
Had worn nappies
Had been given breakfast that day
Had traveled in a car
Eaten a banana

Yet the parents never think of anything else as baing a 'trigger'.

AndMiffyWentToSleep Fri 29-Mar-13 06:06:29

The research linking MMR was fraud - it has been completely discredited. There is no link between autism and MMR.
The MMR researcher was being paid by those hoping to make money from selling three separate vaccines. You can read about it in the British Medical Journal.

PhyllisDoris Fri 29-Mar-13 10:21:47

I strongly urge you to have your child vaccinated OP, even if you pay to have the the 3 vaccines separately.

specialsubject Sat 30-Mar-13 19:59:15

please, please ignore the anti-vaccination conspiracy theory nonsense. Please listen to people such as sashh and AndMiffywenttosleep.

please get it done.

SneezingwakestheJesus Sat 30-Mar-13 20:27:19

I know it was fraud but its hard to see past the people who believe their child changed overnight when they had it done. I can understand it just being coincidence as that's when signs of autism may start to show but its down to the week or night after the MMR for some children that show massive regression and its hard to ignore that. And I can't understand why the courts have awarded compensation if it doesn't happen. Or why there are funds for vaccine damaged children. I'm so muddled sad

NaturalBlondeYeahRight Sat 30-Mar-13 20:32:37

Every doctor I know (4) has vaccinated their child with the combined jab. That's good enough for me.

TreeLuLa Sat 30-Mar-13 20:33:15


The car ride to the Doctor's surgery to get the vaccination is more likely to kill or injure your child than the vaccination itself.

It's up to you, but I know that the evidence for preventing potential harm to your child weight heavily in favour of vaccination.

Welovegrapes Sat 30-Mar-13 20:36:47

Op I understand your worries and I single jabbed my DS for measles at 20 months. He will have mmr before school.

I couldn't say I definitely think he was at risk from mmr. At fact I think he almost certainly wasn't. But nagging doubts made me go for single measles.

hermioneweasley Sat 30-Mar-13 20:37:10

The "doctor" who led this incredibly small"study" has been completely discredited and has been struck off for his part in anti MMR hysteria.

Get your child vaccinated and fall to your knees in gratitude that you live in a country where not only is it encouraged and available, but it's free.

SneezingwakestheJesus Sat 30-Mar-13 20:38:32

We'll be walking treelula but I understand the point you are making.

I just feel stuck between two potentially crap outcomes. If she does react to it, she could regress like her uncle did (according to his mum who strongly believes it happened overnight) or she might be fine. If she doesn't have it, she could catch the diseases and be damaged or die, or she might be fine. But she might never catch the disease in the first place. This is the hardest decision I've had to make in my life. If I hadnt met people who believed that it had changed their child and if her uncle wasn't autistic, I wouldn't question it but I have and he is, so I do.

Its hard knowing that either way if anything bad happens, its my fault.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Sat 30-Mar-13 20:44:05

My dd is autistic. She was showing autistic tendencies long before she had the MMR vaccine.
But even with an autistic dd, I'd take the chance with my next DC because the alternatives (like a severe case of measles and some of the possible consequences of that) are worse.

Tabitha8 Sun 31-Mar-13 19:01:13

So many people keep saying that Andrew Wakefield was proved wrong or that he was a fraud, or whatever. Are those allegations against him actually true?

sashh Mon 01-Apr-13 07:44:03

Or why there are funds for vaccine damaged children

This was set up in the 1960s when there was a higher chance of a vaccine causing brain damage. Interestingly it was the measles vaccine, the single shot some people who oppose MMR give tot their children.

No one has been given compensation for MMR damage. There was a case in Italy which was reported as MMR damage when in fact it was a very complicated case with a child with complex disabilities and where it could not be proved that MMR had no part in the child's health worsening.

This was in a civil case, not a criminal one where the burden of proof is higher.

Are those allegations against him actually true?

Yes, He has been struck off the medical register for gross misconduct.

Welovegrapes Mon 01-Apr-13 07:47:04
TheFallenNinja Mon 01-Apr-13 07:56:42

I implore you not to make a connection between a compensation payout and medical fact, particularly one reported in the daily mail. has all the references

DuttyWine Mon 01-Apr-13 07:59:05

I second the poster who pointed out how lucky we are to have free vaccinations . Dp's cousin has autism his mum doesn't think it was caused by mmr... My aunt is deaf, definitely caused by childhood mumps.

aufaniae Mon 01-Apr-13 08:09:49

Yes it's rubbish that you have to choose between two possibilities, both of which seem to have risk attached. But that's the way life is unfortunately. no intervention is 100% safe.

However, the risk of catching measles mumps or rubella is much higher than the risk of any vaccine damage.

The link between measles and death is proven and real.
The link between mumps and deafness, for example, is proven and real.
The link between rubella and birth defects, for example, is proven and real.

The link with autism is at best unproven, and at worst irresponsible scaremongering perpetuated as it sells papers/advertising space.

Vaccinating your DCs is less risky course of action to taken than not vaccinating.

The MMR saves lives. It's a no-brainer.

sashh Mon 01-Apr-13 08:18:09


I stand corrected.

However that case was not autism. Also only one of the doctors on the panel agreed that the epilepsy was triggered by the MMR, the other expert didn't.

This link is a more balanced approach.

PeopleCallMeChunk Mon 01-Apr-13 09:19:43

I can see you are struggling with the decision so I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but I am in Swansea where there is a big measles outbreak at the moment (400+ cases, 50+ hospitalised). Measles is a horrible illness, very infectious and with serious risks. I know of someone who was brain damaged after having it as a child (around my age, so I assume pre-MMR).

There are confirmed cases in DD1's school, DH's nephew has had it (too young to be immunised, siblings have had the jab) though thankfully he seems okay so far. DD2 is too young for the normal jab but is going to have an additional one which will give some limited protection.

Immunisation isn't totally effective and relies on herd immunity - I am angry that people's failure to immunise is putting my children at risk. I think people feel less guilty about negative action i.e. my child wasn't immunised but got measles, could have happened anyway versus I immunised my child and they were subsequently diagnosed with autism. No proof of a link but feelings of guilt for the parents who are searching for a reason and meaning. As others have said, there is no proof of a link between immunisation and autism - and people have been looking for this for a good while - but there are obvious and serious consequences for your own and other children if you decide not to immunise.

SneezingwakestheJesus Mon 01-Apr-13 15:08:25

Thank you the replies everybody, I do appreciate it. Does anyone know where I can find statistics about vaccine damage or the effects of these diseases? The most I can find is the figures the NHS provides about side effects but I don't know how to find statistics about children who are permanently damaged either from the vaccines or the diseases themselves. I can find the death rates year by year and I can find the statistics like a 1 in 15000 chance of becoming deaf from mumps but I can't find a record of how many children have become deaf year by year like the death rates iyswim? Would that type of statistic exist?

DuttyWine Mon 01-Apr-13 15:13:08

Will statistics really help you though? Maybe look for case studies or personal accounts if you need more information. Although I don't think you are going to find a single piece of information that will change your mind and help you. People have said it all on here and it doesn't seem to be helping you. If your aunt didnt feel the way she does would you have the same fears?

MewlingQuim Mon 01-Apr-13 15:20:04

When the mmr scare happened my DM was adamant that it was responsible for my brothers autism, how he had been fine and then had the jab and his behaviour changed.

I pointed out to her that he was vaccinated years before the mmr vaccination existed. DM was blush

I will be giving DD the mmr vaccine.

SneezingwakestheJesus Mon 01-Apr-13 15:45:10

Its not my aunt. Its my dd's uncle (her dads brother) who is autistic and his mother who believes it triggered her sons autism. I wouldn't have fears about the MMR triggering autism if there was no autism on either side of the family. I read about a theory that some forms of autism are genetic and could be triggered by anything or never triggered at all. It worries me that dd could be triggered by the MMR the same way her uncles mum believed it was triggered that way for him.

I would like to read statistics so I can be more informed about how dangerous these diseases are. So, yes, if they provide me with more information then they will help me into deciding either way. I'm not trying to convince myself into giving the MMR or trying to convince myself not to, I'm just worried that I'm going to regret the choice either way so trying to find out as much as I can.

bruffin Mon 01-Apr-13 15:52:07

Sneezing info here

IOM looked at evidence for causality for lots of vaccines here

risk of disease against vaers reported vaccine side effects

This may help WHO approved websites

There is also studies done in Japan where the stopped MMR and the autism rate went up.

Also none of the Wakefield cases were fine one day and autistic the next. Their medical records are discussed in the gmc prosecution also info available on the Brian Deer website.

and finally there is something call Recall Bias where people are desperate to find a cause, so their memories make events closer and closer so it appears one event causes another.

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 01-Apr-13 15:58:56

Op I feel your pain. My older DD seemed to change after her MMR and she's 8 now and "kind of" spectrumy but not enough for a diagnosis. We got DD2 done and saw a slight change which could of course be her age not the MMR...however...we've not had DD2s booster done and we won't be.

aufaniae Mon 01-Apr-13 17:03:10

Just to be sure on this, how old is your DD's uncle btw?

SneezingwakestheJesus Mon 01-Apr-13 17:12:29

Thank you for those links bruffin. Will have a nosy through them when my brain is in gear smile I hadn't heard of recall bias before and that would fit in the scenario of a parent desperately trying to find a reason for their child regressing. Lots to think about there thanks!

Neo, would you mind me asking how soon after the MMR you noticed changes?

Aufanaie, dd's uncle is nineteen.

SimLondon Tue 02-Apr-13 22:24:18

Eek, same thing keeps coming up on this board. If you are at all worried about the mmr then pay approx £100 a time to have the separate vaccines. Measles is the important one so start with that, mumps is very mild - most people don't even know they have it and the vaccine is at best 60-75% effective.

SimLondon Tue 02-Apr-13 22:31:34

Btw if you do need to claim compensation or care for vaccine damage from the government then you can do it on their website

bruffin Wed 03-Apr-13 08:38:35

Yes Sim hmm
I suggest if any one wants to know the risk of Mumps they look at the links i gave. Why would you pay a £100 for an unliscenced vaccine that is no safer. The only people who recommend single vaccines profit from selling single vaccines. Even Andrew Wakefield had a patent for a single measles vaccine long before he declared that mmr was unsafe at the news conference.

Sooty7 Thu 04-Apr-13 06:38:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tabitha8 Thu 04-Apr-13 14:21:14

Presumably, Sooty that info isn't being collected. It certainly doesn't appear to be being reported anywhere.

CatherinaJTV Fri 05-Apr-13 08:21:47

Tabitha - if you are interested - call them. I called the HPA last summer and got all measles info I wanted. It will end up in Eurosurveillance with about half a year delay after the end of the outbreak anyway. No conspiracy ;)

It never ceases to amaze me that people will find anecdote and suspicion SO persuasive but the known facts that measles kills children and MMR protects against measles carry so little weight hmm.

OP - if you're looking for 100% guarantees, sorry there are NONE in life at all for anything but you give your child the best chance of a long and healthy life with vaccinations. That's good enough for me.

coorong Sat 06-Apr-13 12:04:14

look, if you know one person who smoked and lived to their nineties would you say "it's safe" - no, you'd probably look at all the evidence and realise that they're lucky.

I had mumps as a 13 year old (before the vaccination) and it was horrible. I also met a paralympian who'd lost her leg and part of her arm from septicemia (sp?) following measles as a child. So you can sample individuals or you can sample overall evidence.
And a close friend lost her 6 month old to meningitis (prior to the vaccines).

Both my daughters were vaccinated without hesitation. The anti-vaccine lobby makes me furious, it feeds of people's fears by putting doubt in your mind. It's like pro-smoking lobby in the 70s funded by the tobacco industry.

And if you think it's big pharma against the common man think again. Who do you think owns and makes money from all these herbal remedies etc? they're not owned by mum/dad shops, they're often the same companies with a different name.

Tabitha8 Sat 06-Apr-13 17:16:18

The pro-vaccine lobby feeds on people's fears. Of disease.

AryaUnderfoot Sat 06-Apr-13 22:03:35

For very good reason, Tabitha.

Childhood diseases lead to all sorts of complications that can vary in severity from febrile convulsions and scarring to severe disability or death. In the last two years, three of my friends have spent the night in hospital with their DCs following febrile convulsions from relatively mild childhood diseases. I am not the most amazingly popular person in the universe - I don't have huge numbers of friends.

Have you ever sat with your child in an Intensive Care Unit? I have. It was a truly horrible experience, and one I never wish to repeat. If a vaccination can even halve the chance of me ever having to do that again (and I really don't believe there is any evidence to suggest vaccinations cause long-term harm) it is worth it.

Tabitha8 Sun 07-Apr-13 14:43:49

I'm not suggesting that we ought not to use vaccinations. However, the point is, we all have the choice as to how we wish to proceed. It is not for one group to try to scare witless the other group.

bruffin Sun 07-Apr-13 15:04:54

How is quoting rates of complications scaring someone witless. I only see scaremongering on abtivaccination websites

Tabitha8 Sun 07-Apr-13 15:11:11

Ha, ha, ha. You would say that. When someone comes on TV and talks about how dangerous something like Mumps is, I call that scaremongering. You'd probably call it perfectly reasonable, would you? This argument could run and run.

Tabitha - it is reasonable as there is clear medical evidence of the dangers of these diseases. There is no evidence of a link to autism, so yes there is a difference.

There is money to be made by some anti-mmr people/sites etc as parents will potentially pay for the single vaccines or other woo non-evidence based herbal solutions in an web worse case scenario.

Sry iPhone 'helping' me write!

isitsnowingyet Sun 07-Apr-13 15:35:41

Could you have each one administered separately? This was possible 4 years ago in Manchester as a friend of mine had concerns re: the combined vaccine. It might be an option worth looking into if you're very worried.

aufaniae Sun 07-Apr-13 15:44:19

It's not scaremongering if you are reporting fact.
If something is genuinely dangerous, being scared of it is a reasonable response I'd say!

I've found that the anti-vac people I know are woefully short of info on the potential harm from the actual diseases. One mum I know refused to get her son vaccinated, she could reel off all sorts of info about what she though the dangers of vaccines were, but she didn't think that measles could be a killer. She was basing her info on measles on her memory of friends getting it when little and it not being a problem.

I have another anti-vac friend who said she was going to skip getting a tetanus jab as it made her eczema flare up. She then told me she'd rather get tetanus than eczema shock That's just ridiculous! Eczema is a horrible thing to get.

I wouldn't consider myself to be in a "pro-vaccine lobby". I consider myself to be in a "pro-science" or "pro-rational thought" lobby! When people started talking about MMR being dangerous I was open minded as to whether it was true. I did my own research, the info is easily available now, and came to the conclusion (along with anyone rational IMO!) that the MMR is much safer than not vaccinating. I also found out along the way about some risks associated with vaccinating that I didn't know about before, they were news to me. However I fail to see how anyone who has genuinely looked at the figures, the facts on the dangers of the diseases the MMR prevents, and articles in reputable scientific journals about vaccinating could fail to come to anything but the conclusion that vaccinating is the saftest course of action for the vast majority of DCs.

I think many people have a problem with critical thinking, they're simply not used to having to construct or pull apart proper logical arguments. It's how the politicians get away with so much spin! It's a shame, as the wool is being pulled over people's eyes, but it's not by the government here!

Tabitha8 Sun 07-Apr-13 16:18:50

I told you the argument could run and run.

As to the "dangers of the diseases that MMR prevents" - that is scaremongering. How dangerous would it be for my child to get German measles? Or mumps?
I could quote you dozens of people who had measles when little but are fine. Of course it's a nasty disease, I'm not saying it isn't. It has the potential to kill. It very rarely does so.

As for autism, I never mentioned that in the same sentence as MMR.

Single jabs are available, but not for mumps, if anyone is interested.

AryaUnderfoot Sun 07-Apr-13 16:48:51

I, personally, know one person who was left blind following childhood measles - although I don't know if it was rubella or measles.

My sister worked with someone who was blind and partially deaf as a result of their mother catching rubella when pregnant.

I also know one person who had a very severe bacterial secondary infection as a result of chicken pox. She was in intensive care for several days, and it was touch-and-go whether or not she would live.

The scars on her chest and back are the size of two-pence coins.

Childhood diseases can be very serious.

aufaniae Sun 07-Apr-13 20:02:41

Here's a great blog post on vaccines.

Tabitha I'd be particularly interested to hear your views on it.

An open letter to my dad on the occasion of his recent anti-vax Facebook postings

zirca Mon 08-Apr-13 13:31:19

We have aspergers tendencies in our family, along with a history of bowel problems and allergies (crohns, coeliac, eczema etc). I also reacted very badly to MMR, even though I had it much later. I did some reading after having DC and it appears that the original study simply said that they examined SOME children with regressive autism, and some without. Those with regressive autism all had measles virus in the lymph nodes etc in their gut. Those without did not. The question then was, how did it get there (MMR), why did those children not manage to fight off the attenuated measles strain, rather just keeping it at bay. That was never investigated.

As someone with a biology degree, I'd say that if the findings of that study were to be true for all children with regressive autism, they'd likely be the children that would die if they caught measles - after all, if their bodies cannot fully fight off the attenuated strain in the vaccine, they would stand no chance with the full blown disease. The risk factors would be the same as found in the initial study - impaired immune function at the time of the vaccine e.g. already being ill, family history of abnormal immune system (autoimmune problems, allergies etc). The reasoning then behind single vaccines would be that you are hitting the immune system with less at once, and giving the body more of a chance to succeed in fighting off that strain fully. I'm not sure yet what we will do, but one possibility would be having the measles and rubella vaccs singly, blood test to see how well it has taken, then the booster MMR just before school age. DC would have had a chance to build some immunity to the single vaccines, so should not then be in the category of children who might have problems with the MMR. But who knows to be honest. It it something we will discuss with our doctor and take from there.

bruffin Mon 08-Apr-13 13:54:25
Tabitha8 Mon 08-Apr-13 17:30:49

aufaniae I'm sure I'd like Tara's father.

As for Brian Deer, I saw a Youtube video with him in it and thought at first that he was a doctor. Silly me.

NewMumOnline Thu 11-Apr-13 11:50:12

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CatherinaJTV Thu 11-Apr-13 12:13:49

NewMum - Natural News as a source? Really hmm

It is completely disingenuous to link to a German text from 1980. In Germany, the MMR (usually Priorix) is recommended at 11-14 months (first MMR) and 15 to 24 months (second MMR) and vaccination rates are a) high and b) still increasing. What was stopped in about 1977 was the use of single measles vaccine (and from that time, the MMR was used). These days, measles in Germany break out in pockets of non-vaccination, usually in Steiner schools or daycares and when they do, those "corn-fed" children get as ill with as many complications, including encephalitis and death, as the average omnivorous, non-supplemented German child.

NewMumOnline Fri 12-Apr-13 00:14:36

Thank you for your reply and your comment on my blog. I'd love to hear from one of those "corn-fed" parents to hear whether they agree with you :-(

CatherinaJTV Fri 12-Apr-13 09:41:58

I talked to some of the children and I do follow outbreak reports which identify the index case and pattern of spread, as well as complications. You will still find parents who think that it was just great that their kids got measles, but that doesn't change the fact of very high complication rates (otitis and/or pneumonia in as many as 10% alone).

JennyEx Wed 17-Apr-13 14:44:14

"Its hard knowing that either way if anything bad happens, its my fault."

Things, both good and bad, happen by accident. That simple fact may be harder to accept - and more frightening - than the notion that you're in control of all outcomes, and bear fault for them. We are creatures who draw connections and see patterns in all sorts of things - but as the man said, just because you kill a goat in the field every year doesn't make the crops grow!

We make decisions, deal with the consequences and life goes on. It may well be that there's an increased chance (through genetic predisposition) that your child will register somewhere on the autism spectrum; all indications are that any such inherited factors are pretty minimal. And as was said above, diagnostic sensitivity is increasing these days.

On the flip side, there is an increasingly dangerous environment for children where measles, mumps and rubella are concerned due to an increased fraction of parents who were frightened away from vaccinating their children.

If you are uncertain then seek the advice of an expert - but only if you're actually going to listen to their advice; otherwise you are needlessly creating more angst for yourself.

I find it interesting that approximately 10% of those reported to have measles in Wales have been hospitalised. A figure that does bear out the quoted rates of complication.

Tabitha8 Wed 17-Apr-13 17:56:08

10% is quite staggering, isn't it? If we had 100,000 infections over two or three years, we'd be sending 10,000 to hospital. Is it because we've just forgotten how to deal with measles or did we just never learn?

Why do so many get complications, is really my point.

CatherinaJTV Wed 17-Apr-13 18:29:31

Measles virus infection suppresses the immune system, leading to a lot of opportunistic infections (otitis and pneumonia most frequently) in addition to the very high fevers, and diarrhea that many get.

Tabitha8 Thu 18-Apr-13 19:01:24

So, why doesn't everyone get complications? Or do they, but most don't end up in hospital?

bumbleymummy Thu 18-Apr-13 19:53:52

There's a big difference between an ear infection and pneumonia - why are these being out together?

bumbleymummy Thu 18-Apr-13 19:54:29


bumbleymummy Thu 18-Apr-13 19:56:07

Perhaps high rate of hospitalisation are due to people being overly cautious - particularly if it's in a young child.

Tabitha8 Thu 18-Apr-13 20:07:20

So, do we know the ages of those sent to hospital? I've obviously Googled and obviously got nowhere.

QueenOfCats Thu 18-Apr-13 20:11:44

I too dismissed the MMR/autism link, until I witnessed the overnight (and it was literally overnight) change in my friend's ds.

CPtart Thu 18-Apr-13 20:21:52

There are no higher rates of autism in children that have had the MMR than those that haven't.

Tabitha8 Thu 18-Apr-13 20:23:41

Which does not prove that the MMR was not responsible for a case of autism, does it?

CatherinaJTV Thu 18-Apr-13 20:42:51

I witnessed my husband coming down with a 41 degree fever for the first time in 20 years, literally overnight after a cancelled flu shot appointment.

PigletJohn Thu 18-Apr-13 20:47:59

that's a strange argument.

If you sincerely believed that MMR causes autism (and you don't) then you'd expect to be able to prove a connection (though not necessarily a causal link) by seeing increased numbers of MMR causing increasing numbers of autism, and decreased numbers of MMR causing decreaing numbers of autism.

So what do you think you mean?

PigletJohn Thu 18-Apr-13 20:49:45

(that was for Tabitha8, of course)

Which does not prove that the MMR was not responsible for a case of autism, does it?

what does that mean?

bumbleymummy Thu 18-Apr-13 20:52:33

PAj is pointing out that CP's comment doesn't prove anything. Looking at the population as a whole can not explain one individual case.

QueenOfCats Thu 18-Apr-13 20:57:21

Slightly different CJTV

CatherinaJTV Thu 18-Apr-13 21:03:55

Queen - both are post hoc ergo propter hoc, if my husband had had the jab that day, nothing would have convinced me that it wasn't a vaccine reaction. Unfortunately, we don't have alternative universes to play out the "what ifs" and "what if nots"

QueenOfCats Thu 18-Apr-13 21:27:08

I see what you mean, but you're more likely to come down with flu than go to bed a normal child and wake up having totally regressed.

I did give my dd the MMR , although slightly later than she should have had it. Thank God she was fine.

I do think though that had my dd been due the MMR after my friends dd had hers, I would have had serious doubts. My friend has decided not to give her younger ds the MMR after what happened to his sister.

Tabitha8 Fri 19-Apr-13 17:58:35

I have not made up my mind about MMR and links to regressive autism.

PigletJohn Fri 19-Apr-13 18:19:33

That's odd, you say things like "Which does not prove that the MMR was not responsible for a case of autism, does it?"

which give me the impression that you have made up your mind, long ago, to say lots of vague, unsubstantiated things intended to cause feelings of uneasiness and fear. Just the sort of thing to reduce take-up.

Tabitha8 Fri 19-Apr-13 18:29:34

Does my making up my mind or otherwise influence others? Gosh. That is scary indeed. I'm off now to find out if it's too late to stand as an MP.

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 18:53:25

It didn't read like that to me Tab smile I understood what you were saying and I'm sure others did too smile

PigletJohn Fri 19-Apr-13 21:16:02

"oh I don't know, it might not be safe, just because there's no proof of harm and all the research finds no evidence, you never know, that doesn't prove it's safe, all those people who don't trust it must have some reason, that doesn't prove the injection didn't make his head explode, you can't be sure it's just coincidence, maybe there is something to it and nobody's proved it yet, or maybe there's evidence and it's being supressed"

would be an example of saying vague, unsubstantiated things intended to cause feelings of uneasiness and fear. Just the sort of thing to reduce take-up.

"Which does not prove that the MMR was not responsible for a case of autism, does it?"

would be another example.

bumbleymummy Fri 19-Apr-13 21:33:05

I can see a big difference PJ.

Tabitha8 Sat 20-Apr-13 20:54:50

I bet David Cameron wishes he had the same level of influence over the electorate of this country that PJ thinks I have over the readers of the vaccination threads on MN. He (Cameron, not PJ) would win the next election with a tidy overall majority.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 21:00:42


PigletJohn Sat 20-Apr-13 21:08:06

David Cameron needs millions of people to support him to make any difference.

If a single child suffers injury through a fully avoidable disease, as a result of being swayed by unsupported smears and rumours which fly in the face of medical research, that has made a difference.

Do I believe there is a risk that one or more parents might be influenced by the fear, uncertainty and doubt which you seek to spread?

Yes I do.

Tabitha8 Sat 20-Apr-13 21:10:40

Then you must ask for any such of my posts to be immediately removed.

PigletJohn Sat 20-Apr-13 21:21:55

I just checked my conditions of membership, and I find that I am not obliged to obey your instructions.

Also, as I'm sure you know, Mumsnet Galactic HQ will remove postings that are obscene, contain personal attacks or break the law.

Nothing there about people who try to stir up confusion by spreading false and unsubstantiated rumours.

Tabitha8 Sat 20-Apr-13 21:27:55

According to you, I could be responsible for some terrible outcomes. Please do have my posts removed.

I'm going now, to apply for a job as an election campaign advisor to all the main political parties and go for whichever will pay me the most.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 21:28:11

What about people who make false, unsubstantiated accusations? smile

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 21:28:53

Good luck Tab! smile

Tabitha8 Sat 20-Apr-13 21:31:23

Thanks, Bumbley! I'm just typing up my CV.

False and unsubstantiated allegations probably equals a well paid job in the press.

milkymocha Sat 20-Apr-13 21:34:40

I'd rather an austic child than a child who died from a disease i could have prevented!

Immunise your child.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 21:35:58

It's not one or the other milky hmm A bit simplistic!

PigletJohn Sat 20-Apr-13 21:49:39

Indeed not, milkymocha, since the false rumours of a link between MMR ans Autism have been fully discredited, and repeated studies have found no evidence to support them, on top of which we have the Japanese experience.

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 21:52:15

'The Japanese Experience' sounds like something from a travel brochure...

PigletJohn Mon 22-Apr-13 09:00:20

But not to anyone who has taken an interest in the question.

pecky4eyes Fri 26-Apr-13 12:43:52

If you dig deep, you will find that all the studies to say that the MMR is safe, are all funded by the drug companies who make the drug. And all the evidence to discredit Andrew Wakefield was funded by the drug companies.
I would never inject something (that I have no idea what is in it - preservatives, mercury etc) into my precious child that a doctor cannot give me 100% assurance that it is safe......Didn't you find it strange that Tony Blair never came out and told us that his children had the MMR? Because they didn't.....
And if you have the MMR, you can still get the illness.
Start feeding your child a healthy diet and cut out all the processed junk, sugar and fizzy drinks, to improve their immune system.

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 13:13:06

"you will find that all the studies to say that the MMR is safe, are all funded by the drug companies who make the drug"

Pecky, if that can be proved to be untrue, will you publicly apologise?

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 13:13:46

"And all the evidence to discredit Andrew Wakefield was funded by the drug companies."

And that?

pecky4eyes Fri 26-Apr-13 14:29:59

Will not need to - as it's all on google.

PigletJohn Fri 26-Apr-13 14:34:37

there's a lot of stuff on google, and I can't tell which bit you mean.

Would you like to divulge your source?

JoTheHot Fri 26-Apr-13 14:43:41

"all the studies to say that the MMR is safe, are all funded by the drug companies who make the drug"

2 clicks on google later

The Cochrane review - "We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections."

Cochrane funding - "national governments, international governmental and non-governmental organisations, universities, hospitals, private foundations, and personal donations. They are not permitted to accept funding from commercial organisations such as pharmaceutical companies."

So, Pecky is it to be an apology, preferably abject and groveling, or are you going to try and wriggle your way out of it?

coorong Fri 26-Apr-13 15:13:35

The same science used to create vaccines is the same science enabling you to search google for crackpot claims about MMR.

Btw Leo Blair was vaccinated.

Those who campaign against vaccines or undermine campaigns to produce community (I'll refrain from using the term herd) immunity can be lumped with the religious fundamentalists who recently murdered nine health care workers in Nigeria for trying to ad mister polio vaccines. In the same way that anti vacc people are convince that MMR causes autism (and even if it doesn't their gut feeling says it must be wrong), these Nigerian extremists (not the mums and dads who are desperate for the vaccine to avoid polio) are convinced the polio vaccine will sterilise Nigerians!

That's the company anti vaccine campaigners keep.

Stop all this nonspecific google derived nonsense. MMR is the best possible protection. Where outbreaks have occurred (eg Germany and Chicago ) it's been among unvaccinated communities.

Measles as an R0 of 15, meaning that an infected person (ie before symptoms appear) will infect on average 15 others.

And if you're adamant about single measle vaccine, read today's letter in the guardian from a woman representing Sense - the charity for rubella victims.

DialMforMummy Fri 26-Apr-13 15:25:32

I would never inject something (that I have no idea what is in it - preservatives, mercury etc) into my precious child that a doctor cannot give me 100% assurance that it is safe......

No medication or food is ever 100% safe.
So let me get that straight, if you do not vaccinate, what do you do in case of illness? Surely your DC will at some point take medication in which there will be stuff that you don't know. What will you do then?

I am amazed that in this day and age people still thing like you Pecky.

exoticfruits Fri 26-Apr-13 15:42:32

I see that a vociferous anti vaccine person is peddling nonsense that you just need vitamin A and if you eat plenty of carrots, mangoes and dried apricots you are safe-added to the fact that people don't die from measles-just 'mismanagement of the fever'.
I do hope that people ignore and get the vaccine.

exoticfruits Fri 26-Apr-13 15:43:34

Sadly this is a person who holds a lot of sway. I thought of commenting on her blog but dismissed it as a waste of time.

exoticfruits Fri 26-Apr-13 15:54:28

I also don't think she has the slightest idea when she talks of epidemics. I was reading the log book of a school in Victorian times and it quite often had to close entirely with an outbreak of a disease and then they had to disinfect the premises before they all went back.

lljkk Fri 26-Apr-13 16:07:39

There is a (popular with antivaxers) anti-disease model of understanding measles (& similar microbes. The idea is that all these bugs are truly only mild, almost benign microbes, and that only people with run down immune systems / inadequate nutrition ever actually become ill from any of them. The logic is that if you feed yourself the perfect diet and breathe the perfect air and live in a toxic-free environment, then viruses & bacteria can't ever make you ill.

it's very very weird thinking!

I witnessed my husband coming down with a 41 degree fever for the first time in 20 years, literally overnight after a cancelled flu shot appointment. <- lol @ that.

exoticfruits Fri 26-Apr-13 17:28:12

The same person says that Polio hasn't been wiped out, it has just been renamed- very odd when there are older people who are still suffering the effects of having it as a child and you just don't get it now. I don't understand the logic- she would be against tetanus too- despite the fact that diet won't stop an infected wound.
I know a baby who has just been exposed to measles and they haven't had time to have a varied diet full of vitamin A.

Emperor Fri 26-Apr-13 22:12:23

I am fed up with the way people expressing concerns about vaccination are being treated here and will not follow this discussion anymore.

fishoils Sat 27-Apr-13 22:43:03

They told us thalidomide was safe. They said that we would all get AIDS. Official advice on avoiding cot death switched from 'babies must lie on their fronts' to 'babies must lie on their backs' with barely an apology. The wise person responds with deep caution to the words 'Trust me, I'm a doctor', and with even more caution to the words 'Trust us, we're the Government'.

LaVolcan Sat 27-Apr-13 22:48:58

Official advice on avoiding cot death switched from 'babies must lie on their fronts' to 'babies must lie on their backs' with barely an apology.

And the push for the change came initially from parents who had lost a child to a cot death.

exoticfruits Sat 27-Apr-13 22:50:37

However-people didn't vaccinate their DCs and now we have an epidemic of measles- and I think it is only the start. It is now in my area.

PigletJohn Sat 27-Apr-13 23:02:09

where's pecky's reply?

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 07:40:32

Fish oils - the three things you mentioned, thalidomide, cot death and AIDS are great epidemiological studies of populations.

Thalidomide paved the way for drug regulation. Once data came in it was withdrawn (it was in use for 3 years - I just missed out), thenMcBride et al crunched the numbers.

MMR has been in use for 40 years with billions of doses, there is reems of data and nothing linking it to serious side effects.

The interesting one is cot death. In south east, the culture was to lie infants on their backs. And I rembemr in Australai, that's what we did (even in the 60s). It was women, in the UK, who promoted front sleeping not doctors. Again epidemiological studies tracked sleeping patterns.

As for HIV, once statistics became available, infection rates declined (in the 90s) because condoms were used.

If you want more stats have a look at the relationship between vaccination rates and measles infection - vaccination rates up, infection down, vaccination down, infection rates up.

And more stats. According to NHS, about 1 in 10 measles cases will end up in hospital. Now call it a conspiracy, but at the moment of the 900 cases 85 have been hospitalised.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 07:41:45

South east Asia where babies usually slept on their backs

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 07:48:54

'And I can't understand why the courts have awarded compensation if it doesn't happen. Or why there are funds for vaccine damaged children.'

could anyone please put into simple words a response to this, because this is what concerns me...thankyou

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 07:53:52

This is interesting

Why does France have a huge number of cases and so few complications/deaths reported?

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 07:59:51

The measles epidemic in France ( and likewise in Germany and Chicago) occrurred in unvaccinated communities. They stayed within those communities because as a rule we do not mix outside our own ethnic / socio economic group. There are CDC studies on these outbreaks with all the data.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 08:50:05

It was women, in the UK, who promoted front sleeping not doctors.

Sorry, I disagree there. My children belong to that generation. We were distinctly told in the maternity hospital that we must do this.

Anne Diamond, a newreader, was one who lead a campaign against this policy.

bruffin Sun 28-Apr-13 09:29:06

Goombay those figures dont show all the complications

I had these figures at the time

"thirty-three countries in the WHO European Region are also experiencing higher number of outbreaks. There have been 6 reported deaths from the virus, 360 cases of severe pneumonia and 12 cases of encephalitis that has not occurred in the U.S. Ten thousand cases have been reported in Europe from January to April, 2011."

that is a death rate of 1 in 1666
and serious complication rate of 1 in 26"

this looks at the whole outbreak

"Overall, with more than 30,000 cases of measles in Europe in 2011, 8 deaths, 27 cases of measles encephalitis, and 1,482 cases of pneumonia, most cases were in unvaccinated (82%) or incompletely vaccinated (13%) people.

France was the hardest hit, with over 15,000 cases of measles and at least 6 deaths last year, 651 cases of severe pneumonia and 16 cases of encephalitis."

Theironfistofarkus Sun 28-Apr-13 10:05:44

I can give some limited insight into the courts issue. A judge is just a clever person generally speaking. They have a mix of views on different subjects as does everyone else. There are thousands of judges in the US, all of whom will have different political and other persuasions. Judges will be influenced by their own personal views on things, their experiences (do they know people with autism?), the quality of the lawyers representing each side and likely also how sorry they feel for the individual affected and the availability of funds to help that person. Judges are meant to be objective but no-one, not even the brightest people, can be entirely so.

In civil cases, judges make decisions on the basis of whether they think something is more likely than not ie a 51% likelihood of something having happened in their opinion is enough. Very different from the criminal "beyond reasonable doubt" - this would be 95% plus. This gives them much more flexibility.

I know nothing about this US judge or the Italian one and I have not read their judgments. But what I can say is that just because they are judges, it doesn't mean they are right that the mmr caused autism in the cases they judged or in general. All judges, like doctors or anyone else, get things wrong sometimes. I know a few and they would be the first to admit that.

The best analogy would be asking 1000 doctors about how to treat a particular common condition. Most would broadly agree but you would get a few dissenters. Of course the dissenters could be right (it is impossible to rule that out entirely) but the overwhelming likelihood is that they are not.

What I can say is that if there was good evidence that MMR caused autism in many cases, the global courts would be FULL of these cases. In the UK at least, the judges are entirely separate from the govt and most would have no hesitation finding against the govt on an issue like this. Solicitors would be advertising for MMR victims on a no win no fee basis if they thought there was a real prospect of winning them.

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 10:35:14

Oh ok Bruffin...I didn't realise it wasn't an accurate picture. What on earth is the point of a stats map that doesn't show the facts?

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 10:49:19

Goombay good question for the daily mail! Re stats map

Newspapers are good at using stats to promote particular editorial campaigns - just look at crime stats

lottieandmia Sun 28-Apr-13 10:54:56

Sneezing, nobody can tell you what the right decision is. You either have the risk of the vaccination or the risk of the disease. It's up to you to weigh up which one is less of a risk in your child's case.

There are still some very good, reputable doctors who provide single vaccines but it is important to go to one who can show evidence that they store the vaccines correctly and that they have been stored correctly according to the manufacturer's instructions throughout.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 12:49:35

Of course the dissenters could be right (it is impossible to rule that out entirely) but the overwhelming likelihood is that they are not.

This isn't necessarily so. Sometimes the dissenters can't get their voices heard. Think of this week's news about delayed cord clamping. Immediate clamping has been going on for 50 years and although it was indicated in some individual cases it largely just became a matter of policy, as this article from The Guardian shows.

Who could say that there is no room for doubt with vaccination policies?

rosi7 Sun 28-Apr-13 13:15:05

"For years, government health officials and most other medical authorities have dismissed the idea that autism might be linked to childhood vaccines; and the special court set up by Congress to compensate people hurt by vaccines has denied thousands of claims over the past decade by parents who have contended that their children developed autism because of their inoculations. But a new report in a New York law school journal, the Pace Environmental Law Review, [67] could re-ignite the often-inflammatory debate over the issue. Based on a sampling of cases in which plaintiffs won settlements or awards in vaccine court, the authors found that many of the victims demonstrated evidence of autism even though—as a legal tactic—their lawsuits emphasized other injuries"

This is the link:

PigletJohn Sun 28-Apr-13 13:54:43

we've seen that website before, it's just a rabid antivaxxer site, and not at all reliable.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 14:14:43

Rosi7 -i wouldn't rely on judges or lawyers as arbiters of good science - e.g. the hundreds of death row inmates whose sentences have been overturned after years of appeal. And as another poster recently noted, Italian courts aren't great when it comes to science - they just convicted several seismologists for failing to predict an earthquake.

Your data is Correlation - not causation. I can give you a couple of other causes of autism, based on correlation

organic food

Media stories - Nate Silver in his latest books also does a fab graph showing an almost one to one corresondence between the nuber of children who are diagnosed as autistic and the frequency with which the term is used in American newspapers with both increasing recently (with a slight lag between media mentions, then diagnosis)

You'd never say organic food causes autism, or that media stories do, but anti vacc campaigners when they see the relationship between MMR and autism have no hestitation.

You want more examples - visited

JoTheHot Sun 28-Apr-13 14:38:00

'Sometimes the dissenters can't get their voices heard'.

This quote illustrates well why the anti's stay stuck in their rut. A vaccine isn't safe because the authorities say so, or dangerous because the dissenters say it's not. It's safe because that is what the data show. The dissenters collect little data, never use controls and do no statistical analyses. There dissent is devoid of rigour, until they fix this, no-one will, and no-one should listen to them. They're just a disparate bunch of people lazily clinging to a bunch of unproven hypotheses.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 14:42:48

Sorry, JoTheHot, I don't agree with that and nor was I just talking about vaccines.

They're just a disparate bunch of people lazily clinging to a bunch of unproven hypotheses. Just love the sweeping generalisations here.
Time may tell.

JoTheHot Sun 28-Apr-13 14:58:30

Rather than just tossing back knee-jerk piss-poor commentaries like 'I don't agree' and 'sweeping generalisations', why don't you actually go to the effort of properly explaining yourself, and then back your views up with something.

What don't you agree with? Everything in my post? Do you know any dissenter who has done some proper stats? Time may tell what? You either are clinging to unproven hypotheses or you aren't; time can't change that.

lovemybabyboy Sun 28-Apr-13 15:05:02

My DS has autism and I do not think it was caused by the MMR, it's definitely genetic in our family as DH has two cousins with autism and my sister and nephew have asbergers. There is also probably an environmental trigger. I really don't believe it is the MMR but if I am wrong then I would much rather have my beautiful boy the way he is an healthy!
It is a worry and I won't lie...I did worry about getting DS2 vaccinated with the MMR but decided to have him vaccinated in the end.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 15:22:34

JoTheHot. Is it a crime to disagree? I specifically instanced something which is nothing to do with vaccines, early cord clamping. Policy now is on the point of being looked at and possibly revised. This is an area where some medical staff were out of step with what is at present the accepted practice. Although on another thread a poster (a midwife I think) said that she asked about this policy 5 years ago and was looked at as though she was on another planet, but now those same dissenters have begun to make their voices heard.

So were these HCPs just a lazy disparate bunch who clung to a bunch of unproven hypotheses. Or were these people who said look, the current policy isn't optimal, let's try something different?

If this can happen in one area of medicine, could it not happen in another?

JoTheHot Sun 28-Apr-13 16:46:40

It's not a crime to disagree. It's lazy and unproductive to blandly say you disagree, without saying what you disagree with, and why you disagree with it. You still haven't done this. If you re-read my post you'll see I make no comment on HCPs' views on cord clamping. This is after all a vaccine thread.

That dissidents sometimes turn out to be right, does not mean that dissidents are right in general. The vast majority of dissidents turn out to be wrong. Vaccine dissidents are no different. In fact they're worse. Not only do they not have anything mathematically rigorous to support their views, they mostly can't even be bothered to look for such support.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 17:27:19

Yes, it's a vaccine thread. My original posting was in answer to the person who said that there were a minority of dissenters who were likely to be wrong. That was a perfectly valid viewpoint but not one I shared and I said why I thought so. I felt that it was perfectly valid to say that other areas of medicine could have dissenters who were eventually proved right.

As an example, I talked about a different area of medicine where right now, the accepted orthodoxy is undergoing re-appraisal. This group of people questioning the orthodxoy were no doubt in a minority. I asked why this couldn't be applied to other areas of medicine which would include vaccines.

If you think that is 'lazy and unproductive' then so be it, I don't think I can explain any more to you.

Theironfistofarkus Sun 28-Apr-13 17:41:18

I don't think anyone can conclude that the dissenters are absolutely wrong. Nothing in life is certain. We can only make decisions based upon what we know at the moment. Who knows we might discover one day that apples cause heart attacks. But for the moment, there is no evidence to suggest they do.

I would say that the dissenters have had their voices heard pretty loudly in this case. Wakefield, for instance, has very definitely been heard.

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 17:48:29

I would go with my gut reaction and I know that if my DC cut their leg on a rusty wire I would want them to have a tetanus shot - I wouldn't take the risk of not - therefore I am pro vaccine.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 18:08:44

unfortunately the consequences of the disenters actions are playing out in Wales -

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 18:54:12

and unfortunately they won't accept that it is a direct consequence of refusing vaccines.

GoombayDanceBand Sun 28-Apr-13 18:56:31

Oh so cut to the chase, it's the FAULT of people who don't feel safe having the vaccine that other people are getting ill. Is that what you're saying?

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 19:18:38

It is a herd thing. It then protects those that can't have the vaccine.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 19:27:02

So what about those people who had the vaccine but then catch the disease?

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 19:34:30

You need enough to have the vaccine-we no longer have polio, smallpox, diphtheria -and children don't die of tetanus.

As I said early-reading the logbook of a primary school in Victorian times the school regularly had to close because of epidemics and was then disinfected before they went back some weeks later-sadly not all the children, some died.
When I was at school it never closed for illness like that and it certainly doesn't today.

rosi7 Sun 28-Apr-13 20:45:52

"we've seen that website before, it's just a rabid antivaxxer site, and not at all reliable".

Interesting opinion - but not more than that.

PigletJohn Sun 28-Apr-13 20:51:33

true though.

rosi7 Sun 28-Apr-13 21:21:30

an even more interesting opinion

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 21:35:03

exoticfruits - The Victorian times began to see massive improvements in public health with good sanitation and clean water. Plus the development of anti-biotics and better nutrition. These all play their part. Oh, and we don't have horse muck everywhere now either.

rosi7 Sun 28-Apr-13 21:55:50

Coorong - "Your data is Correlation - not causation"

As much as it is correlation and not causation that some diseases disappeared around the same time that vaccinatin was introduced.

Sneezingwakesthebaby Sun 28-Apr-13 22:03:06

Hi everybody!

I just thought I'd come back and update in case anyone was interested. I've decided to vaccinate my dd with the MMR and we have our appointment tomorrow with the nurse to get it done. I finally feel calm and certain about the decision and I'm very glad that the decision is finally made.

The thing that cemented my decision was when I was considering the measles epidemic and had a sudden panicked thought of "what if I haven't had the MMR?! I best check or I could catch it!". That gut reaction made me realise that I was being quite selfish to deny my daughter the protection that I, in that moment of panic, hoped I had.

Another contributing factor was the realisation that if she caught measles and I didn't realise what it was in time to take her to the hospital or doctor, the side effects of the measles that could be managed at the hospital could already have taken hold of my dd and the damage would already be done. I wouldn't be able to cope with the guilt if my lack of reaction to symptoms meant she was damaged or worse.

I know there is still a risk from the vaccines but think I have accepted that should we be so unlucky that any side effects do happen to dd, we will find a way to cope. I will love her no matter what and if any damage would be done by the vaccine, it would be done in an attempt to protect her from the disease itself. I think I would be able to handle that a lot more than damage caused by me denying her the chance to be protected.

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 22:25:47

A sensible decision Sneezing. I get very irritated with the idea that you can't get these diseases because of better public health etc as if it made a difference. My mother's cousin died of diphtheria as a child, she had good nutrition, clean water etc. Surely you are not saying that we rely on antibiotics to get rid of them without preventing in the first place.
Are you really prepared to or get a tetanus shot for your DC if they cut themselves on rusty wire LaVolcan or that you would take them to a third world country without inoculations? ( without you turning round and saying you wouldn't be taking them there- IF you were...........)

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 22:27:00

Sorry 'really prepared not to get.......

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 22:37:56

I think good public health is another part of the equation.

Talking of third world countries - my DIL is from Africa. I know she's had vaccinations, I don't know what their sanitary facilities or water quality were like. It's something I would like to find out more from them. I don't think they were going into the bush to squat down or drinking water from a stagnant pond though.

PigletJohn Sun 28-Apr-13 22:46:14

good public health is a wonderful thing

however, entirely useless against such diseases as measles. Or would you disagree?

exoticfruits Sun 28-Apr-13 22:57:32

Measles attacks those with good standard of living and health too! DIL from Africa would be mad not to have her vaccinations IMO.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 23:01:08

Good public health makes very little difference to diseases like measles - in fact it can make you complacent. Because we don't diseases for water borne bugs (dysentery) we forget about other bugs like measles - which are not spread by poor hygiene. It's a bit like blaming headlice on not shampooing. No relation.

And don't forget vaccines are used to prevent viruses which cannot be treated with anti biotics (which are used to treat bacteria). Increases I sanitation did not reduce measles, it reduced other bacterial based infections. The great drop in measles occurred in the late 60s 70s following the introduction of the vacccine.

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 23:05:04

According to WaterAid
"Did you know that the diseases caused by dirty water and poor sanitation kill more children every year than AIDS, malaria and measles combined?"

So I don't know whether clean water and good sanitation is useless against measles, but it will certainly help a person's general health.
DIL did have her vaccinations.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 23:05:51

Sorry Rosi7 I find it very difficult to take you seriously after seeing a post of yours on one of Mumsnet cancer forums linking an article about chemotherapy being worse than cancer. I thought it was extremely insensitive to the many people on this website who struggle with cancer daily. NOT helpful whe your going through chemo therapy and making tough decisions. It's not straightforward and comments like yours were akin to those suggesting homeopathy cures.

coorong Sun 28-Apr-13 23:11:50

Absolutely, the sign of a civilised society is running water. But once you've achieved this milestone, as we have, you need to tackle the diseases that arise in dense populations - viruses such as chicken pox, measles, mumps. Now you can be proactive or reactive. Proactive is much better because you cannot predict how an epidemic will spread, nor who will fall. That's where vaccines help. It doesn't matter how clean your water is, how careful you are, viruses are indiscriminate, once they infiltrate your social network.

Measles have one of the highest R numbers (after malaria). an infected person will on average infect 15 others, this compares to an R figure of 1-2 for the flu virus, do you really want to take that risk?

LaVolcan Sun 28-Apr-13 23:17:54

I just pointed out that public health was important, and might have been one reason why Victorian epidemics no longer occur.

PigletJohn Sun 28-Apr-13 23:25:35

apart from diseases like measles, of course.

exoticfruits Mon 29-Apr-13 06:56:09

And the fact that we now have vaccinations.

PigletJohn Mon 29-Apr-13 10:37:51

So I don't know whether clean water and good sanitation is useless against measles

yes, it is.

GoombayDanceBand Mon 29-Apr-13 11:15:43

I think given that there is almost no one on this thread who's said they have proper, thorough knowledge in this field of medicine, and no one has backed up their arguments with any proper links, (including myself, and except for Bruffin) then I prefer to read the other thread on the same topic where several people who work in this field have been posting. Otherwise it's just a lot of reactionary (including myself) balderdash really.

rosi7 Mon 29-Apr-13 12:34:02

Well said, GoombayDanceBand.

fibo Thu 16-May-13 10:17:18

I am also scared stiff of giving my 12 year son the MMR vaccine. In the past he has tested both positive & negative for Ceoliac Disease (a lifelong autoimmune gut disease). His Gastroenterologist says that in time it will most likely develop “matter of time”....He has issues with his blood clotting very slowly (though not Hemophilia) and had full blown stomach ulcers. My GP has now written to me asking for him to be vaccinated....I want him protected but feel dammed if I do and dammed if I don't. I have a friend who insists their child became very ill a few hours after having the MMR and they now been diagnosed with Autism.

I would really appreciate peoples views...considering his health issues!

coorong Thu 16-May-13 21:08:16

The link with autism has been dismissed outright (irrespective of what you read on this thread). You best bet is to avoid getting medical advice for you son from a bunch of strangers on the internet and ask you GP for a referral to someone who can give you some better information (a paediatric specialist).
Best of luck, if in doubt, ask for a second opinion. A decent GP will take your concerns seriously.

monkey36 Wed 29-May-13 20:29:25

@ Sashh - Hi - what do the Japenese do now since they got rid of the MMR? Do they have a single mumps that it safe and licensed? Can we get it here in the UK?

monkey36 Wed 29-May-13 20:36:28

@ sneezingwakethe jesus - hi - How old is your daughter? The older the better in my view, and also boys tend to be more prone to autism. If you are so worried, just let her have the single vaccines for measles and rubella. Not sure where you live but there is the organisation, Babyjabs who may be able to help. The only single you cannot get is the mumps element but it's more serious (I think) if a boy gets mumps (infertility risk). I relented last year and let my 12 year old sn have the MMR as he was missing one mumps ( I had all the others done as singles 2x but could only get one mumps before they stopped production). As he is a boy, I worried so much that he might get mumps and become infertile - so I had to do it. He was and is absolutely fine. I am glad I did it now, but not glad that I has to succumb in the end to the MMR.

juliaboo Fri 31-May-13 10:39:47

Just to throw into the mix - apparently inflammation in the brain (neuroinflammation) has been found in in higher numbers in autistic people (sorry to be unscientific but can't remember where I read it but not the daily Mail for sure smile - google neuroinflammation and autism)
Anyhoo, what I understood it to mean was that it's an immune system problem that can lead to inflammation in the brain, which is present in higher numbers in autistic people (though there are many other causes of autism as well) Obviously, any jag/infection etc can cause high temp & may lead to inflammation in brain if immune system not strong. So a child could develop autism following MMR or following an infection like measles.
My brother is autistic btw (pre MMR) so I got my DS now age 12 single jabs back when he was a toddler just in case there was any genetic predisposition/ immune system issue which might've meant the MMR triggered autism in him. My mum is convinced it was the forceps delivery that gave him brain damage -we'll never know.
Now I have a 12mnth old DS and am considering it all over again but would not leave him unvaccinated, so it's either 2 jags separately or MMR

Lots of kids used to die of the measles until the vaccine was introduced. We just don't remember, but my gran does smile
Parents should have the choice of single vaccines then outbreaks wouldn't occur
Doctors/NHS/government are not always right smile & they are in the pockets of pharmas for sure. Anyone who doesn't believe so just go to your GP & ask for help with a phobia or anxiety & see what they offer you (it wont be CBT or other v effective psychological treatments, it will be betablockers!!)

bumbleymummy Fri 31-May-13 21:18:04

I've actually been revommended for CBT and hypnosis for my phobias but my doctor is lovely smile

juliaboo Mon 03-Jun-13 20:42:01

That's reassuring smile

Oceansurf Tue 27-Aug-13 21:07:20

Sorry to bump an old thread..

OP Did your child have the MMR?

I'm currently leaning towards separate jabs...but leaving single measles until LO is about 15/16 months...12 months seems too young to me. She reacted v badly to her 2 and 4 month jabs.

monkey36 Sat 07-Sep-13 22:49:10

Hi, my son had separates but before I could get the last mumps done, the single mumps vaccine went out of production. I did not worry too much at first, but as he got older (12) I could not not stop worrying that he might mumps and suffer infertility.... so I just went for one MMR- all fine. No reaction at all which suggests that he probably had immunity but I did not want to go own the blood test route. Glad I let him have the MMR, but then he was much older, and had most of the vaccines singularly. It's hard, I know but I am sure you will make the right decision. It's bonkers that we cannot get a licensed single mumps vaccines.

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