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Advice from those who delaying or haven't vaccinated

(61 Posts)
looseleaf Wed 07-Nov-12 21:58:19

I strongly feel DD was affected adversely by her very early vaccinations and when I looked up their ingredients 3 years on I was also horrified she was given levels (of mercury or aluminium, my sleep deprived brain no longer remembers) way above the recommended amount deemed ok.

I've since seen a summary of an independent study suggesting that non-vaccinated children are 4 times less prone to various health problems - I'm not trying to make any arguments here as it's such an emotive subject but I want to ask , when u have such a very strong gut instinct not to vaccinate this time round, and have read widely (, and I've also consulted a private doctor who's studied the subject extensively and raised lots of wuestions rather than dictate answers) have I still come away afraid to stand firm with my instinct - ie do you too find yourself patronised or spoken to aggressively by health professionals?

Please give me any advice as I'm so worried and we've just joined a new surgery where the receptionist was frankly rude when I said we're deliberately delaying DS' vacs (he's 16 months). I kept very calm and confident but I worry am going to have problems and if only they understood the hours and hours I've spent researching and deliberating over making what I feel is the right decision (DH trusts me but is programmed with the rest of us to feel vaccines aren't to be questioned )

No debates please as I do need help from anyone in the same boat and reassurance that surely I'm not alone? I really feel so angry at my total blind faith the first time and wish I'd at least waited a couple of months even for dd's immune system just to develop a bit first?

Sorry for my stressed post and DC's health stresses me out as dd (fully immunised btw) has had a tough health history

sashh Thu 08-Nov-12 01:50:48

Sorry but I think it is par for the course.

I'm very pro vacine - I'll just get that out of the way so you know I am biased.

You may well have done a lot of research, and it may actually be research from good sources (peer reviewed journals, PubMed etc. etc) But, and it is a big but, you will be one in a million.

The vast majority of people who don't vaccinate do not research properly.

I had a rather heated discussion with another poster who kept saying "why can't scientists tell me this is 100% safe?"

Well a scientist cannot say that because there is no proof something is safe for everyone. Even water. We allow children to freely drink water, we drink it ourselves. As lay people water is safe to drink. To a scientist it is safe to consume in most situations but in some can be poisonous or cause great harm (do you remember Leah Betts?).

So the Dr, HV, receptionist, nurse does not know if you have researched properly or have just googled a few anti vax sites, and most people objecting to vaccines (not those with health issues that prevent vaccination) have got their information from Dr Google.

You are being tarred with the same brush.

Health care professionals are encountering diseases that where virtually unknown 20 years ago. Things like whooping cough.

It's not personal, stay calm ad assertive.

But please understand that a child registered at that surgery may have died that week due to a disease that can be vaccinated against, someone with a poor immune system might have caught something that they would not have done if vaccination rates were higher.

If you were employed by a GP, even as a non medical person such as a receptionist, and you used to see a child on a regular basis, but you don't now because they died from whooping cough, measels, or even diptheria wouldn't you be a little bit aggressive when you encountered an unvaccinated child?

AnitaBlake Thu 08-Nov-12 02:42:14

Well put sashh!

Cadmum Thu 08-Nov-12 03:28:43

Forgive me for changing a few words in sashh's post: If you were employed by a GP, even as a non medical person such as a receptionist, and you used to see a child on a regular basis, but you don't now because they died from a serious reaction to the whooping cough vaccine? Wouldn't you be a little bit aggressive when you encountered a parent who vaccinated their child without doing any research themselves?

Probably not on the UK since doctors cannot offer impartial, scientifically-based information without adversely defecting their own financial remuneration. The real reason your GP's surgery will encourage you to vaccinate your child is because they are paid more to do so.

The pertussis vaccine was changed precisely because of adverse reactions including infant deaths. This is little consolation to those who lost a healthy infant prior to the change. I am too emotionally involved to be impartial and I tend to avoid these threads but the op is looking for support not further condemnation.

piglettsmummy Thu 08-Nov-12 04:52:58

I was worried initially about having dd vaccinated not all but more specifically the MMR jab especially as during a research project ( educational purposes not personal) I had encountered both for and against arguments about it and the against MMR was more striking to me. But then I kind of looked around and thought
Actually look how many millions of children there are and there is such a minority of children that have been claimed
To be affected by vaccinations. Most of which are parents who need to find a explanation for there child's medical issues. my dd has a
Complex of problems and is what docs call an 'allergic baby' ( their term not mine). I still worry about vaccinating her as she perks up allergic reactions wherever and whenever she likes! But I always think well there can be something done to reverse it. Vaccinations for children is like medication for adults. They all work by helping the bodys natural processes if u read the whole list of ingredients in most medications would u really wana take it still? Probably not but u do because it helps. The same goes for vaccinations they will help fight of the conditions they are made to, yes they may have side effects but at the end of the day they wouldn't process a drug of it wasnt safe x

notnagging Thu 08-Nov-12 05:14:15

People who don't get their children vaccinated are responsible for the spread of illnesses that could've been prevented if they had done. All pregnant mothers are now being advised to have the whooping cough immunisation for example as people are not vaccinating their children. There is a reason vaccinations exist, there is no conspiracy theory behind it. I pray to god your child does not attend nursery with other children who have not been vaccinated.

downindorset Thu 08-Nov-12 09:41:13

Hi OP. I'm not sure what help you need but I can give you reassurance that you are not alone. My DS has had his first set but as soon as I started weaning him the allergies started coming and I stopped. I may well pick up again when he goes to school but at the moment, I'm leaving things as they are and letting him grow and develop without interference.

Keeping calm and confident is key as you have suggested.

I know a variety of people, some who vaccinate completely, some who don't at all.

I do believe in doing your own research and not blindly trusting doctors. I used to trust the medical system implicitly until I had some wrong advice, some wrong procedures and lost a child as a result. Now I am much more circumspect. What I have learnt is that there are good doctors and bad doctors. And that just because something is recommended at one time does not mean that it will be recommended in the future, when time has passed and more is known. Also, the system uses protocols and does not treat individuals. Unfortunately, we all need individual treatment because we are not all the same.

I do think there are some strong positives to vaccination, particularly in the developing world where sanitation and nutrition are real issues. I also think it's not an easy decision either way. In the end, we must all do what we feel most comfortable with and live with the consequences. There is a lot of fear and hysteria around this subject and it's hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes.

I have a mish-mash if vaccinations and not amongst my children. I phoned the vacc people wot kept sending me letters and asked them to stop. They did so without questioning why.

Pagwatch Thu 08-Nov-12 09:49:47

Its a difficult area.
I think if you have had a strong adverse reaction from a vaccination then your concern is understandable.
But you have to be able to discuss those concerns in a rational way.
And you have to remain very focused about the fact that vaccinations are voluntary so, if you feel people are being pushy nd aggressive rather than helping you with your concerns, then you should feel free to ignore them.

But it is an obligation I think to discuss it fully - to test your own views to make sure they are sensible and robust.

Dd is not vaccinated but I discuss this with my Gap. He understands why and actually he agrees so its not an antagonistic conversation
Of course he recognises tht, just as you did, I had assumed that I would vaccinate fully until some serious adverse reactions made e question that. Very different from just dismissing vaccination with no promoting.

Notnagging
My DD attended nursery and school. They have all been fully informed.
In your finger pointing rant did you consider at all that some people simply cannot vaccinate?

notnagging Thu 08-Nov-12 14:37:04

Not being able to vaccinate for medical reasons is different from not wanting to as you feel your child is more precious Then anyone else's.

Pagwatch Thu 08-Nov-12 15:32:17

Yes. But having had an adverse reaction, as the Ops child did, makes her concern understandable and not in the 'more precious than anyone elses' category.
Although that is an interesting concept in itself as don't we all regard our child as more precious than other peoples? Or do you genuinely regard my DD as precious as your DCs ? And if vaccinations are totally benign why does does how precious a child is come into it?
More to the point, 'medical reasons' can be a matter of opinion. DD has no specific medical reason not to be vaccinated but that the substantial list of family reactions, including the severe reaction of her brother, means that most of her medical advisors say she shouldn't have any. But I bet I could find a couple who would say she should.
It isn't cut and dried.
So the 'i pray to god...' guilt fest was a bit unnecessary IMO.

Yes, the surgery will be rude, the GP will use emotive language and you will be threatened with all sorts of things if you choose to forge your own vaccination path. These things are all par for the course.

If you are well-read on the pros and cons of vaccines, that will put you on a good footing, as many GPs don't read further than the blurb sent by the vaccine manufacturers. The practice nurse who gave DD a couple of her jabs was so badly informed it was laughable.

Unfortunately doctors are so used to being treated like demi-gods by their staff and patients, that it's easy to forget they are human, with human failings.

I agree with Pagwatch - if your reasons for not vaccinating, or choosing a bespoke vaccination schedule, are sensible and robust, then you will be able to deal with GPs and practice nurses.

looseleaf Thu 08-Nov-12 20:01:06

Thank you all so much for your replies. Downindorset I was so saddened you've had known such loss by the way. And grateful to all your replies, Pagwash too and some interesting questions.

'If you are well-read on the pros and cons of vaccines, that will put you on a good footing'

Well yes, but actually you don't have to give any reason at all to refuse vaccinations. You can just say 'no thanks' and refuse to discuss it further. You don't have to 'make a case' to avoid them, you simply refuse consent.

CelticPromise Fri 09-Nov-12 00:58:32

Of course it must be very worrying if your child has had a bad reaction, and I don't doubt there are a few children for whom vaccination is not to be recommended.

But I am always shocked at the attitude that there is a money making conspiracy behind immunisation, or that your doctor is promoting it to make money. As if the NHS along with public health bodies worldwide would provide it if there was no evidence of safety and efficacy. I will trust the experts to read the evidence and make the recommendations rather than Dr Google, because I am not a scientist and I am not capable of appraising the quality of research.

Herd immunity can protect the few who can't be vaccinated, but there are so many unvaccinated children now it's not working. We don't have smallpox any more thanks to vaccination. I read the other day that polio, which had also been on the way to being eradicated, is making a comeback.

OP as you feel very strongly perhaps you could consult an immunology expert who might be able to answer your questions rather than raising more.

'As if the NHS along with public health bodies worldwide would provide it if there was no evidence of safety and efficacy'

But they have done this before. With the first MMR for example. Other countries were busy withdrawing it and the UK peddled it harder.

I am not a scientist, but I don't need to be to have experienced systemic failure by the NHS time and time again, poor decisions, policy and financially driven medical decisions rather than individualistic and poor training. Nor to understand political and corrupt rationale for policies, pharma deals and health decisions.

Our politicians and our NHS Senior management are constantly in the news for getting it wrong or having hidden agendas. Vaccinations themselves being immune to this is a bit of a tall claim to make.

CelticPromise Fri 09-Nov-12 10:43:37

I can't think of an instance of seeing NHS management in the news for having hidden agendas.

There are corrupt individuals in every organisation and the pharmaceutical industry is a disgrace. They suppress trials that don't support their work and they are in it for the money.

But there are many many trials, conducted by public health organisations as well as big pharma, that show the safety and efficacy of vaccines. The original MMR is still in use in some countries- I understand the evidence shows it's more effective.

I just don't believe that noone who conducts any of these trials and supports vaccinations is in it for good and moral reasons, and I am happy to be advised by people who know what they're talking about. My understanding is that pro vaccine scientists are very much in the majority, and as it is their job to evaluate evidence that's good enough for me. I've also read a bit about the recent MMR scares and I think the media has been very irresponsible in reporting poor research and discouraging vaccination.

I think the rise in whooping cough and measles is quite scary too.

Beaaware Sat 10-Nov-12 13:58:31

This is what is in the pneumonia vaccine (prevenar13) given to babies, young children aged between 6 weeks and 5 years:

30.8 micrograms of pneumococcal purified capsular polysaccharides
32 micrograms of CRM197 protein
aluminium phosphate
sodium chloride
succinic acid
polysorbate 80
water for injections
and finally

exposure to Bovine derived materials, but dont worry they say that no evidence exists that any case of vCJD (human bse) has resulted from the administration of any vaccine.

(not sure how they would know this for certain)

Makes you think twice!

sashh Sun 11-Nov-12 06:43:55

* If you were employed by a GP, even as a non medical person such as a receptionist, and you used to see a child on a regular basis, but you don't now because they died from a serious reaction to the whooping cough vaccine? Wouldn't you be a little bit aggressive when you encountered a parent who vaccinated their child without doing any research themselves?*

No

1) has this even happened? I know there hace been 10 babies killed by whooping cough this year.

2) That child will not have infected anyone else.

StuntNun Sun 11-Nov-12 06:56:05

DowninDorset what is the connection between vaccinations and allergies? I haven't heard of this before. I know when I was a child I couldn't be vaccinated against measles because the vaccine was produced using eggs and I was allergic. Please could you explain what you mean.

My DSs were recently advised to have their BCGs. DS1 was very worried about the pain of the needle so my DH and I discussed with him how important vaccinations were and that he would be protected against a very serious disease. This led to a discussion with DS1 about smallpox and it made me realise that we wouldn't be able to eradicate smallpox worldwide now if we had to, because so many people would just refuse to vaccinate.

amarylisnightandday Sun 11-Nov-12 07:06:48

With dd1 I jabbed until she was 6 months then I panicked, delayed so I could do masses of reading then I held off until 18 months and rejected the last pneumococcal but agrees to the mmr. Dd is fine BUT her immune system seemed to dip right down after the last jab she had under 12 months (not got her red book with me to tell you what it was) and this really concerned me. She was v robust prior to that and is again now but then she's had no jabs for 18 months plus (keep thinking she might be due one and if its pneumococcal and she's technically covered I will refuse it).

I am about to have dd2. I will not be refusing the jabs but I'm not allowing any until post 6 months and only when she is in good health.

On the whole I am pro vac and I do think a considered decision is a responsibility to wider society.....but seeing a v v healthy, bf baby knocked out of whack like that concerned me greatly. That said I fob think it was a medium term, not long term effect of the jab and it doesn't change my opinion about jabs on the whole.
I am also v against giving children anti biotics unless its an emergency. Dd1 has never had any - I have refused I think 2 courses on a lets wait and see if the temp can be managed by calpol basis. I can see with my own eyes the difference in general health and immunity between dd1 and various little friends who were bf for the same period and have v comparable lifestyles and diets.

downindorset Sun 11-Nov-12 09:27:45

Stuntnun - there is a possibility that vaccination and autoimmunity is linked - perhaps by triggering allergies in those that are susceptible. As far as I can tell, the exact extent of the link is not known and in most cases is probably negligible. However, My DS was allergic to egg and now has a strong anaphylactic reaction to nuts. His allergy status is changing as he grows. Since both allergy and vaccination are immune related, I chose to stop one until I knew more about the other. That way, I could be sure that any vaccinations he was having were not influencing his system. For my peace of mind, it is the best thing to do.

What would have happened wrt smallpox if we'd vaccinated against cowpox and made it extinct?

stargirl1701 Sun 11-Nov-12 09:35:30

Beaaware it doesn't make me think twice at all. I was desperate for my LO to be vaccinated. Two babies in my local area are in Intensive Care at the regional teaching hospital with whooping cough. I was terrified my LO would catch it and die. I feel so much less anxious now she has had her first vaccination. I was offered the whooping cough vaccination by the GP to help protect me as her primary carer. I took it in a heartbeat with the flu jab. I had two sore arms and felt a bit ropy for 24 hours. Worth it. I feel so privileged to live in a country where all this is free.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 09:53:46

There is no connection between allergies and vaccination, or in fact immunity problems. Family of nut and seed allergies
The diseases we vaccinate against do have connections to immunity problems ie rubella and arthritis and measles and mumps to diabetes.

StuntNun Sun 11-Nov-12 10:18:57

I hadn't heard of that before DowninDorset. It does seem unlikely given that the allergic response and immune response are mediated by different components of the immune system which would make a link between the two unlikely. More research needed probably smile

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:30:42

All my DC's have been fully vaccinated by Reception age. But given our family history of allergic reactions and other adverse reactions to vaccines, I vaccinate at a much slower rate, through choice, than the guidelines recommend.

I do believe that whilst each individual vaccine may be safe, it is the combined effects of giving so many vaccines at once that worries me, after extensive research. (My DD was due her MMR at the exact same time as the discredited report by Dr Wakefield (?) was published, so I did extensive research around the subject then, and have done with each subsequent DC.)

So, they have one vaccine at a time, at least 4-6 weeks apart, to give their still developing immune system time to recover. They still end up having had all their vaccinations before Reception age, though.

I don't have an issue with the MMR per se, more that it is given at the same time as other vaccinations, when the body is already dealing with a triple vaccination.

And I don't give the first dose of MMR until 2yo, because I feel that their immune system is far more developed at 2yo than it is at 1yo.

Trazzletoes Sun 11-Nov-12 10:42:55

sassh it could happen to my DS... Not whooping cough necessarily, but he's fully vaccinated so far and then... Chemotherapy. He can catch anything going faster than I can blink. And that measles? Yes, that's got a decent chance of killing him.

He is completely at the mercy of herd immunity... Or lack of it. I know everyone does what they think is best for their child but we are powerless in the face of other people's decisions.

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:43:49

The reason Polio is making a comeback? Because instead of the drops that used to be used, they are giving it as an additional injection now. At the same time as the DTP AND the Men C.

The injection actually has far more concerning ingredients in it than the drops did, though the drops were a live vaccine and the injection isn't.

I chose to have the DTP first, as per the usual schedule, the Men C 4 weeks later, and the polio vaccine 4 weeks after that.

This is the course I have taken with my DC's, as I feel that it is not just the amount of mercury and aluminium in one vaccine that needs to be considered, but the amount in all the injections you are giving your tiny baby at once.

I think that the immunisation schedule tries to pack too many vaccines into too few Doctors visits. Money based? Definitely. If it takes you 6 times as many GP visits to complete the immunisations, then that stops the GP's from seeing other patients.

Yes, there's herd immunity to consider, but I don't think putting my DC's at risk of allergic reactions and other adverse effects from the sheer amount of vaccines at the same time is outweighed by herd immunity. That is selfish, I grant you, but my DC's will always come before other people's.

In a plane crash, I wouldn't be helping other people's DC's to safety UNTIL I had ensured that my own DC's were safe first. That's life. We are all here to protect our own first and then extend that out after.

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:48:57

I understand how you are feeling, Trazzle. My DS is frequently immune suppressed due to medication for his asthma. Chickenpox is my worst fear, that would have a good chance of killing him. But we don't vaccinate against that!

I know it is hard relying on others to do the right thing, like I have to rely on other people keeping their DC's with CP indoors until the last scan is crusted over.

However, I am not going to rush putting all these things into my DC's in one go when I feel that that will put MY DC's at risk of harm.

It's not that I'm not going to do it, I just want to slow the schedule down.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 10:54:37

Caught is no evidence that mercury or aluminium in vaccines cause a problem. Its.
They tiny amount of aluminium a baby gets in the first year is a fraction of the body burden allowable. Babies are exposed to far more aluminium through gristmill,and food.

Trazzletoes Sun 11-Nov-12 10:59:39

couthy I have the same pox fear so am vaccinating DD on Dr's advice to reduce the chance of him getting it as she is still at nursery but at least, if I know he's spent time with someone that develops it, the Drs can give him something to fight it off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying vaccines. I'm just trying to explain that it's a pretty horrible place to be in when the choice of having your child protected is completely taken away from you and you are entirely reliant on other people having had their DCs vaccinated. There is nothing I can do to keep my child safe from these illnesses bar keeping both DCs in the house permanently.

Can someone point me to the information about polio making a comeback? As far as I know it's held steady at around 1,000 notified cases worldwide for the past few years, and is only endemic in three countries. Even India has been given the all-clear following two years of no notified cases.

There have been no cases in Western Europe for quite a few years now - even with the large amount of travel we have in the UK between countries such as China and Afghanistan which still have polio.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 15:07:45
looseleaf Sun 11-Nov-12 20:12:59

Bruffin there has in fact been a link made between vaccinations and allergies (and asthma) but perhaps you just haven't heard if it.- and that delaying them by even a couple of months can help the immune system to cope better. I've come across this finding in several studies and read for example that delaying DPT by 5 months halves the incidence of asthma. It may well still be best to immunise promptly and I'm just raising it as I had no idea when dd was born (and she went on to develop allergies to wheat, dairy, tomatoes, soy, nuts, citrus so quite an important consideration; we have no history of allergies).

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 20:18:14

Link to them please.

Beaaware Sun 11-Nov-12 20:38:36

stargirl1701, I was talking about the pneumonia vaccine in particular, but I do know a family that lost their 24 year old son to human mad cow disease, route of transmission they believe was likely contaminated batch of BCG vaccines. Yes I agree we are very lucky to live in a country that offers free vaccinations but we also very unlucky to live in a country that has exposed 58million or more people to human bse, these 58 million people cannot ever donate blood overseas because of this reason. We all want to trust that whatever goes into our bodies is safe but as we do not screen/test people for a disease that is infectious how can we trust what we are told especially when vCJD is mentioned on patient info.

stargirl1701 Sun 11-Nov-12 20:47:59

It is the case that from the NHS/Govt point of view has to be the benefit to public health that vaccination brings. If a few (statistically) people have an adverse reaction then it just has to be accepted. Herd immunity must be maintained. How can they have any other view? I support this - even risking my own child's health. For those who cannot be vaccinated.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 21:27:42

no link between asthma and vaccinations

updated no link

again no link

and the IOM which did a recent review of vaccine safety makes no mention of the connection. adverse effects of vaccines: evidence and casuality

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 08:59:58

I do absolutely agree with you of course vaccines benefit people but I think you mis-understand my argument, if the contents of the vaccine were 100% safe i.e labelled 'from BSE free tested herds' then this would be okay with me. There has recently been a case of a cow with bse that was exported from the UK to Switzerland, what happened to this cow's mother and family, siblings, did they go into the food and medicine chain untested. In light of the bse crisis we should have more openness, transparency with vaccines, had my friends son not had the BCG vaccine he would be alive today. No one has ever been held accountable for his terrible death, only compensation is on offer.

Thanks - so polio is not on the increase. I wonder why there is scaremongering about that vaccine? Perhaps it is because there are people around who do remember when polio was a problem in this country? It does seem strange that such a rare disease worldwide gains so much publicity in the UK? Maybe it's because this is seen as a succesful vaccine?

DD hasn't had the polio vaccine - if she ever decides to travel when she grows she can make her own decision.

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:11

stargirl1701, being infected with a contaminated batch of vaccines is not the same as having an adverse reaction to a vaccine. If you receive a contaminated vaccine then you need to be seriuosly worried, but from what I know you will never find out batch numbers nor will you get helpful advice from the manufacturers, in other words no one will ever own up or be held responsible, they can literally get away with murder. In the case of the bse likely contaminated vaccines, there were clusters in some areas of the UK of young people dying from vcjd,some even went to the same schools, did they have the same vaccines, highly likely.
If cows are still developing bse in the UK and they are then vaccine manufacturers need to reassure the public on the packaging that the contents are 'BSE' free.

looseleaf Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:29

Thanks bruffin, I'll look when DS less busy (Internet hard to get to at moment as he climbs everything!). One link iinformedparenting.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/new-study-unvaccinated-children-are.html?m=0 and I'll try and dig out a more mainstream one when time. Not wanting to be antagonistic but curious and genuinely keen to know truth so going to read yours properly . Thanks

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 14:23:20

informedparent is a dodgy website and the study was based on ringing up parents.

another study

more information
kiggs study

ElaineBenes Mon 12-Nov-12 18:36:53

Looseleaf

I don't want to be rude or antagonistic but - seriously???? That 'study' you linked to is your evidence???

This is precisely the problem. Your hours of research on the internet does not give you the tools to distinguish between good and credible research and 'research' which is just ridiculous. This is why your GP won't take you seriously.

Of course, you have the right to have your concerns taken seriously, especially if you believe yoru child to have been adversely affected by a vaccine, but please don't assume that hours of research on the internet equates to being well informed unless you can back that up with an ability to critically evaluate research and evidence and an understanding of the concepts involved. I suggest you go talk to your GP with an open mind rather than excpecting them to take seriously the kind of evidence you're presenting.

Regarding polio, the oral polio vaccine (OPV) has the potential for vaccine induced polio. The risk is very small, much smaller than the disease but it's there (1 in every 2.7 million first doses). The big advantage though of OPV is that it's cheap and easy to distribute and also provides herd immunity. But clearly one wants to avoid a situation where the risk of polio from the vaccine is greater than the risk of polio infection (even if both are very small).

The one that is currently used in the UK and in other developed countries is the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This is more expensive and delivered through an injection. You don't have the risk of vaccine induced polio but you also don't get herd immunity as someone who is vaccinated but infected with polio won't contract the disease but will be able to spread it (due to low levels of immunity in the gut from this vaccine). IPV is one of the SAFEST vaccines in use so delaying polio vaccine doesn't really make much sense especially given the lack of herd immunity. If polio is imported into the UK (which could happen), if you're not vaccinated you could easily be infected as vaccinated people can transmit the disease (but not become ill themselves).

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 20:13:06

Realised where you got that info from looseleaf, it was Richard Halveson, again a fairly unreliable source.

Tabitha8 Tue 13-Nov-12 13:57:54

Richard Halvorsen unreliable? He is a doctor.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207561
How about that instead, then?

www.imi.com.hk/delay-vaccines-reduces-baby-asthma-allergy-risks.html
Or that?

bruffin Tue 13-Nov-12 15:29:13

He may be a doctor, he is just a gp. He has been prosecuted by the advertising standards for false advertising. He was told to stop doing it but carried on and has been told to stop it again. He makes a living from the scaremongering from his book at his Harley Street clinic.

The studies that you have linked to are the same study, which is based on an older version of dtap.

ElaineBenes Tue 13-Nov-12 18:39:24

Funnily enough, paracetomol use has been associated with higher rates of asthma in children.

ElaineBenes Tue 13-Nov-12 20:49:20

Oh and fever/flu in pregnancy is associated with autism
www.livescience.com/24733-autism-fever-flu-pregnancy-inflammation.html?cid=dlvr.it

How amazing that we have an invention to prevent flu in pregnancy!

And another invention which means kids are less likely to get sick and less likely therefore to need paracetomol.

Emsyboo Mon 14-Jan-13 15:42:47

For the record - pro vaccine poster here
However I think the post is getting away from OPs original post.

I think from the emotive response you can get a good view of how people will react to your DC not getting vaccinated but good for you for not just following blindly.

Vaccines are on the whole very safe and have been fantastic for saving lives ,y grandparents brothers and sisters died of diseases like TB and measles but now these are much rarer and fewer people die from them (helped along with better medical treatments). No one can argue vaccines have been very good on the whole.

However, no child is the same and few can have an adverse reaction, if you suspect your child may have a reaction then yes you should do more research but look at the pros and cons if you can give a balanced argument showing you have looked at all the options then they will take you more seriously.

But you do need to look at the credible research quoting anti vax stuff will not win you any support - even if there is truth the way it is written is heavily biased (so are some pro vaccine sites so choose your citations wisely).

I personally hope that whilst doing this research you feel better and get your child vaccinated as other posters are correct we rely on herd vaccination. But herd vaccination is not 100% of the population and it is better to do the research and have valid reasons not to vaccination than the 'I just won't bother' or 'my child is more special'. Vaccination will help your child if they come into contact with this illnesses they will have the armoury to try and fight it - it will not make them completely immune though but without the vaccination they may have a more serious reaction.

My sister had epilepsy therefore did not have the original vaccine for whooping cough as the mercury that used to be in it caused some children to fit. There is not a one shot fits all I'm afraid or we wouldn't have this controversy.

Goodluck in your decision and thanks to other posters some of the links are very useful epsecially bruffin.

specialsubject Thu 31-Jan-13 22:49:04

the content of the vaccine list posted intrigued me, so I looked up what I needed to.

30.8 micrograms of pneumococcal purified capsular polysaccharides - active ingredient
32 micrograms of CRM197 protein - active ingredient
aluminium phosphate -to increase the vaccine efficacy. NO EVIDENCE that it is harmful.
sodium chloride - scary stuff, that.
succinic acid - found in plant and animal tissues.
polysorbate 80 -surfactant and emulsifier
water for injections - dihydrogen monoxide is a well known killer.

yep, pro-vaccine. Met people suffering a lifetime of polio aftereffects, great-grandmother died of TB, have seen photos of smallpox. No treatment for measles.

rosi7 Thu 07-Feb-13 13:04:14

looseleaf, maybe you will find some support here:
https://www.facebook.com/vaccinetruth?ref=stream

CatherinaJTV Thu 07-Feb-13 19:39:46

Vaccine Truth is so badly anti-vaccine that it almost looks like parody. Certainly not a place for information (unless you are researching for a Fringe show).

SimLondon Fri 08-Feb-13 22:57:22

Wow - tons of scaremongering on this thread - how many children have actually died in the last 10 years in the UK due to not being vaccinated? ANSWER: One, a traveller child who had underlying health concerns.

However doctors practices do have targets - they have to have 98% vaccine rate.

I went with all vaccines bar the mmr, I spaced them out though - i wouldnt want 9 vaccines in 3 injections in one day so why is it ok for a toddler to have it? because its cost effective for the NHS.

For the mmr, i went the seperate jabs route and paid privately.

Food for thought.

JoTheHot Sat 09-Feb-13 08:39:13

Wow - tons of disinformation in the previous post. Probably to be expected if you get your vaccine info from facebook ffs.

The one death you're talking about is from measels. You conveniently ignore mortality from all other vaccine-preventable diseases, not to mention all the other misery and disabilities. Even the figure you quote for measels is wrong, it's actually two.

And finally, all that low mortality proves is that vaccines work. If you don't believe that, look at mortality pre-vaccination or in the third world.

CatherinaJTV Sat 09-Feb-13 08:54:01

what is more important, the seperate M, M and R are no longer available. You may still be able to get dodgy, imported measles and rubella vaccines, but single mumps you cannot get from anywhere. So while single M, M and Rs don't have any benefit to begin with (apart from lacing your private GP's pockets), it would now be even more irresponsible to start with singles, because your child would never get the full protection against all three diseases.

14 pertussis deaths in 2012.

mummyinthemiddle Sat 09-Feb-13 22:29:23

OP, you are not alone. There are other like minded people. My DC's are not vaccinated. I haven't had that much contact with the medical establishment, mainly because my children are so healthy! the worst I have experienced was some sarcastic comments from one gp (not at my surgery). I think you will find that you will encounter the most negativity from other parents. From speaking to others, I think that as long as you explain that this is not a desicion you have made lightly, but an informed decision based on your own research, you shouldn't encounter too many problems

I'm not interested in debating the pros and cons here, I just wanted to let you know that you are in a position to make your own decisions regarding your child. Have you heard of Arnica? http://www.arnica.org.uk/

Spidermama Sun 10-Feb-13 17:41:36

OP I have four unvaxed children who's aged btween 14 and 8 and the hardest part of all has been the hostility of others.

Adverse reactions are SCANDALOUSLY unreported. The dangers of measles are overstated. The 'herd protection' argument goes totally unquestioned.

It's a tough path to take but I am true to myself and, having read fantastic arguments on both sides I totally stand by my convictions. By the way I had never even heard of Dr. Wakefield when I made my decision.

Good luck to everyone on this path. I hope one day a proper unbiased debate can take place so that parents get ALL the information they deserve, not just that which makes someone the most profit.

Spidermama Sun 10-Feb-13 17:45:40

Thanks for that link mummyinthemiddle. I've never come across them before. I wish I'd known about such a group at the time I was making the decision. I felt quite alone but it seems the body of questioners are growing. I guess with the democratisation of the media and with ease with which one gets hold of information these days that's ineviatble.

Exciting times.

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